Silly NCAA runner assistance rule...

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Dakota

(snip) Shame on the umpires, for sure, but double shame on the RAT.

FWIW
I don't know about the "double shame" on the RAT.
I don't really care about her and one may argue that she was just doing what RATs do... anything they can to win.

I'd still vote for double shame on the Umpires.
I may be mistaken, but I think at this level I'm supposed to know those rules or at least between my partners and myself, be able to get it correct....

BTW
This has not occurred in any of my games, but I would look at it as one warning per/event as opposed to one warning per person who touched the BR.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

FWIW
I don't know about the "double shame" on the RAT.
I don't really care about her and one may argue that she was just doing what RATs do... anything they can to win.

I'd still vote for double shame on the Umpires.
I may be mistaken, but I think at this level I'm supposed to know those rules or at least between my partners and myself, be able to get it correct....

BTW
This has not occurred in any of my games, but I would look at it as one warning per/event as opposed to one warning per person who touched the BR.

Maybe I'm completely clueless as to how junior college works, but I somehow doubt that's where they send their best umpires. Seems like a likely spot for a "proving ground" if I ever heard of one.

I'm not saying that as an excuse. Just saying I'm not surprised that if it were to happen anywhere, it'd happen there.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Maybe I'm completely clueless as to how junior college works, but I somehow doubt that's where they send their best umpires. Seems like a likely spot for a "proving ground" if I ever heard of one.

I'm not saying that as an excuse. Just saying I'm not surprised that if it were to happen anywhere, it'd happen there.

I don't know, either, but if Div 1 is the NCAA equivalent of HS Varsity, then JUCO is maybe like the 9th grade team?

Or, 18U Gold vs. 14U rec?

I dunno.... maybe I'm being unfair to JUCO teams.

The reason for the double shame for the coach is due to the classlessness of the whole thing. The umpires were ignorant of the rule, or else decided two players were a warning + an out, whatever. The coach was knowingly classless.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And your problem with that is........

No problem at all... just an observation!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't know, either, but if Div 1 is the NCAA equivalent of HS Varsity, then JUCO is maybe like the 9th grade team?

Or, 18U Gold vs. 14U rec?

I dunno.... maybe I'm being unfair to JUCO teams.

The reason for the double shame for the coach is due to the classlessness of the whole thing. The umpires were ignorant of the rule, or else decided two players were a warning + an out, whatever. The coach was knowingly classless.

No...that about sums it up.

As for the umpires that work JUCO ball...

Around here there are folk who may be working a DI game one day, and working JUCO the next, so the previous assessment(NCASA's) of umpires working JUCO ball is not necessarily true, though it is where most collegiate umpires begin their collegiate careers.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't know, either, but if Div 1 is the NCAA equivalent of HS Varsity, then JUCO is maybe like the 9th grade team?

Or, 18U Gold vs. 14U rec?

I dunno.... maybe I'm being unfair to JUCO teams.

The reason for the double shame for the coach is due to the classlessness of the whole thing. The umpires were ignorant of the rule, or else decided two players were a warning + an out, whatever. The coach was knowingly classless.

I agree about the classless act...
That's why they are called RATS.

Like I said, it was a FWIW comment.
My concern is more about us knowing the rules....

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

No...that about sums it up.

As for the umpires that work JUCO ball...

Around here there are folk who may be working a DI game one day, and working JUCO the next, so the previous assessment(NCASA's) of umpires working JUCO ball is not necessarily true, though it is where most collegiate umpires begin their collegiate careers.

Maybe I phrased it poorly, but it wasn't meant an assessment of the umpires themselves. Instead, my statement was directed towards those in charge of prioritizing umpires and their assignments.

For example: I consider myself to be a pretty good umpire. However, I'm not above calling Coed C, like I did last night. At the same time, I was given a rookie partner who has only been calling for the last 3 weeks (and for the record, he did VERY well last night).

I'm sure JuCo has some excellent umpires in its ranks. However, I'm sure that this is where umpires are sent who have yet to prove themselves worthy of higher level assignments.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Maybe I'm completely clueless as to how junior college works, but I somehow doubt that's where they send their best umpires. Seems like a likely spot for a "proving ground" if I ever heard of one.

Okay, I know this will tick off somebody, but here goes.

If someone is using NJCAA as a "proving ground", there is a problem. OTOH, you also need to remember that though these umpires are often very good umpires, it doesn't make them the "best" of all umpires. It makes them the best available umpires.

Not everyone can dedicate the time needed to get to the highest level, but doesn't make them any less an umpire than those working the NCAA Championships.

I have an umpire in my area that has been offered more than a dozen ASA nationals, FP & SP, but due to his job and family commitments he has not been able to accept any. However, if I got a call from KR telling me he needed an umpire for 18U Gold championship, I wouldn't have any problem recommending him.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, I know this will tick off somebody, but here goes.

If someone is using NJCAA as a "proving ground", there is a problem. OTOH, you also need to remember that though these umpires are often very good umpires, it doesn't make them the "best" of all umpires. It makes them the best available umpires.

Not everyone can dedicate the time needed to get to the highest level, but doesn't make them any less an umpire than those working the NCAA Championships.

I have an umpire in my area that has been offered more than a dozen ASA nationals, FP & SP, but due to his job and family commitments he has not been able to accept any. However, if I got a call from KR telling me he needed an umpire for 18U Gold championship, I wouldn't have any problem recommending him.

So if you're an assignor with a new person in your crew with whom you have limited to no experience, you wouldn't send them to the lower levels first and see how they do?

You're correct that not all umpires approach their duties the same way, and you're correct that they all have their own reasons. If they're honest with themselves and they're honest with their assignors, I see no problem with it whatsoever.

We've all spent our time in the trenches, and many of us are still taking grenades there during the week.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

So if you're an assignor with a new person in your crew with whom you have limited to no experience, you wouldn't send them to the lower levels first and see how they do?

We are not talking about rookie umpires here. Just because they don't have experience at that level, to get to that consideration, they would have had to prove themselves elsewhere. This isn't like someone who has never umpired before or, at least, shouldn't be.

I've sent people to nationals and took a load of heat from different directions because others didn't believe they were ready or had enough experience at the lower levels. All returned with Excellent/Good evaluations. There is more to it than just working certain levels of the game.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

So if you're an assignor with a new person in your crew with whom you have limited to no experience, you wouldn't send them to the lower levels first and see how they do?

(snip)

If I were an assignor, I would probably assign a newer person along with an experienced person.
That accomplishes two things.

1) You have back-up for the less experienced guy.
2) you get an evaluation of the les experienced guy.

That's what seems to be done around here...

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

We are not talking about rookie umpires here. Just because they don't have experience at that level, to get to that consideration, they would have had to prove themselves elsewhere. This isn't like someone who has never umpired before or, at least, shouldn't be.

I've sent people to nationals and took a load of heat from different directions because others didn't believe they were ready or had enough experience at the lower levels. All returned with Excellent/Good evaluations. There is more to it than just working certain levels of the game.

Right, but you're trusting that they were being sent to you with a blessing rather than a curse.

I fully recognize that if I were to move to someplace other than NC, I'd get stuck doing the bottom rung games for a while. And you know what? That's okay with me because A) someone has to do it, and B) my assignor hasn't gotten to know me yet.

You assign the people you have based upon how certain you are that they can handle that level. JuCo games, while still important, are not D1A.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

If I were an assignor, I would probably assign a newer person along with an experienced person.
That accomplishes two things.

1) You have back-up for the less experienced guy.
2) you get an evaluation of the les experienced guy.

That's what seems to be done around here...

I think that's what most responsible assignors do, and my assignor is one of them. I consider myself very fortunate to have him at the helm.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

However, I'm sure that this is where umpires are sent who have yet to prove themselves worthy of higher level assignments.

Yes.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Right, but you're trusting that they were being sent to you with a blessing rather than a curse.

Oh, no, I've experienced that and it wasn't a lot of fun. I'm referring to umpires I have sent away.

I fully recognize that if I were to move to someplace other than NC, I'd get stuck doing the bottom rung games for a while.

Even in Cheeseland?

And you know what? That's okay with me because A) someone has to do it, and B) my assignor hasn't gotten to know me yet.

I would do it for one reason, I'm an umpire.

You assign the people you have based upon how certain you are that they can handle that level. JuCo games, while still important, are not D1A.

Yet, there is a good possibility it may be a more difficult game to umpire. Wouldn't you want the experienced umpire here?