Extra warm up pitches

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, if I've got a coach who appears to be on the ball, handles things in a timely manner, and does that only once, I've got no problem with it. It's allowable within the rules. If I get a whiff that the coach is trying to pull something, then I'll tell the pitcher to stop warming up while I deal with the coach.

But by rule, if we're engaged in handling substitutions with a coach, yeah, they can continue warming up. Good game management dictates otherwise, but it's written in black and white.

Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.

Originally Posted by SRW

Steve, with all due respect, I have a fundamental problem with your statement here. This game is not our game as umpires. It's theirs - the players and coaches... I'm sure you're well aware of this.

Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Read the black and white, though; it says "if the umpire delays the start of play". The umpire didn't, the coach did. If I have to, I will make the coach give me the substitution standing at home plate, and report it to the other team from there. The coach does not get a benefit for delaying.

So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches?

If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said

Don't get me wrong; I'm not always a hard case about this. We are talking about the cases where we know what they are doing, and you say we have no options. The black and white is we do NOT have allow additional warmup pitches.

It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If you are confused, then you just aren't reading what I am saying. I said

It is that simple. If a coach does his job, and umpire does his job, it shouldn't take more than the 1 minute between innings; or more than 20-30 seconds between batters. If the umpire is sloooooooooooooooow, and there is a delay because the umpire is slooooooooooooooow, then the pitcher can use that time to take an extra pitch, or two. If both coach and umpire do their job, but doing their job takes a bit too long, then, yes, the pitcher can take another warmup pitch or two.

BUT, if the coach delays until the one minute is up, then wants to give the umpire his subs, that isn't the umpire delaying the game, so that clause does not have to apply. It isn't stated that anytime an umpire takes substitutions that the pitcher can take excess warmup pitches without penalty, nor does it say we should allow them. The rule uses that (handling substitutions) as one of several examples when we may allow them, and not penalize them.

And that's the difference; you are saying the black and white is that we have to allow it. The rule says we do not have to allow it, but we may, and gives some examples of when you might.

I think that in practice, what you and I are saying are basically the same thing. If we're moving along at a decent pace, the coach isn't dawdling and neither is the PU, then extra pitches are acceptable. If I see the coach dawdling or appear to be employing some tactic to sneak a few extra warm-up pitches in there, then no, we're not allowing it.

I think we're both looking for something in each other's posts that just isn't there.

You know, that seems to happen a lot on this forum. Why is that? I'll admit that I'm not immune to it. Maybe it's just CYA...

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

So you're saying that the process of handling substitutions is not a reason to allow extra warm-up pitches because the coach initiates the process? Then why is it specifically mentioned in the rulebook as an example of when we should allow the extra warm-up pitches?

I believe at Nationals and definately at the HOF Qual and 18G sector last year that was definately the case in this area. BU was to monitor it and it was discussed at the pre tourney meeting. This is why I was confused at the begining of this thread.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Poorly chosen wording on my part, I agree. What I meant was we manage the game, we don't allow the coach to manage (manipulate) us.