Obstruction & awards

[Linknblue]

ASA - Runner on 1st. Batter hits to the fence and when rounding 1st is obstructed by 1st baseman. Ball is coming back to infield for a play at the plate on runner that was on 1st. Not in time. Batter/Runner rounds 3b and stops seeing ball is back to infield. Base ump called obstruction and wants to score obstructed runner. Coach argues that the obstructed runner achieved two bases after being obstructed and shouldn't be awarded home....and that there was another play that happened (play at plate albeit a late play). End result, runner was put back on 3b. Correct? Logic correct? Whaaaaa?

[NCASAUmp]

1 - Coach is full of $hit. There is no "two bases" beyond the OBS. If, in the sole judgment of the umpire, B2 would have made it all the way home, then the award is home.

2 - If the play at the plate on R1 is that close, I sure as hell am not awarding B2 home. They're on 3B.

[wadeintothem]

OK, so BU has no clue what they are doing and BU needs some training so that they dont do that again.

Umpires make awards based on judgment THEN they get talked to by the manager/coach. We dont meet with a coach and decide together what the award should be.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

ASA - Runner on 1st. Batter hits to the fence and when rounding 1st is obstructed by 1st baseman. Ball is coming back to infield for a play at the plate on runner that was on 1st. Not in time. Batter/Runner rounds 3b and stops seeing ball is back to infield. Base ump called obstruction and wants to score obstructed runner. Coach argues that the obstructed runner achieved two bases after being obstructed and shouldn't be awarded home....and that there was another play that happened (play at plate albeit a late play). End result, runner was put back on 3b. Correct? Logic correct? Whaaaaa?

Is the part highlighted in red the second act of OBS on this runner? Or are you talking in reference to the OBS that happened at first.

As has been already stated, the only thing that matters here is the base the umpire felt the OBS runner would have made had the OBS not occurred. Not the coach's logic, nor his ability, apparently, to sell it to the umpiring crew. The only issue at hand is the base the umpire felt the runner would have achieved had the OBS not occurred.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

As has been already stated, the only thing that matters here is the base the umpire felt the OBS runner would have made had the OBS not occurred. Not the coach's logic, nor his ability, apparently, to sell it to the umpiring crew. The only issue at hand is the base the umpire felt the runner would have achieved had the OBS not occurred.

To start, why B2 rounding 3B? Where is the coach who should know the ball is at the plate and should be holding the runner?

Secondly, it says the BU "wants" to score the obstructed runner, not that the runner would have scored had the obstruction not occurred. If I'm the BU, I'm keeping my mouth shut and dropping the arm.

If you insist the runner would have scored had the OBS not occurred after the preceding unobstructed runner was nearly put out at the plate, you have exposed a weakness (even if only perceived) in your ability to properly assess a play and player's abilities.

While the coach's assertion that achieving two bases after the OBS is a load of crap, the logic that the OBS runner would not have scored had the OBS not occurred based upon the play on the preceding runner seems to be accurate.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, why B2 rounding 3B? Where is the coach who should know the ball is at the plate and should be holding the runner?

Secondly, it says the BU "wants" to score the obstructed runner, not that the runner would have scored had the obstruction not occurred. If I'm the BU, I'm keeping my mouth shut and dropping the arm.

If you insist the runner would have scored had the OBS not occurred after the preceding unobstructed runner was nearly put out at the plate, you have exposed a weakness (even if only perceived) in your ability to properly assess a play and player's abilities.

While the coach's assertion that achieving two bases after the OBS is a load of crap, the logic that the OBS runner would not have scored had the OBS not occurred based upon the play on the preceding runner seems to be accurate.

I believe the OP mentions the play at the plate being "late." I'm reading that to mean that it wasn't even close.

Regardless, I'd have a tough time convincing myself and anyone else that the runner should have made it home. I think keeping the runner at 3B was probably the better choice.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I believe the OP mentions the play at the plate being "late." I'm reading that to mean that it wasn't even close.

Yeah, the rereading that, I may have read that as being close or there would be no reason to note the play wasn't in time.

Whatever, I'm still dropping the arm and keeping my mouth shut.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Regardless, I'd have a tough time convincing myself and anyone else that the runner should have made it home. I think keeping the runner at 3B was probably the better choice.

I think we all agree with this. However, if the sole reason the umpire kept the runner at third was the coaches argument of "two bases," then there is still a problem that needs to be addressed with that BU.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I think we all agree with this. However, if the sole reason the umpire kept the runner at third was the coaches argument of "two bases," then there is still a problem that needs to be addressed with that BU.

Oh good GOD yes.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Secondly, it says the BU "wants" to score the obstructed runner, not that the runner would have scored had the obstruction not occurred. If I'm the BU, I'm keeping my mouth shut and dropping the arm.

This is the reason I asked if there was a second OBS on the runner that made the BU think, as in some codes, and I believe OBR, that the penalty for this OBS at third was automatically a base award. In the OP, it stated "Batter/Runner rounds 3b and stops seeing ball is back to infield. Base ump called obstruction and wants to score obstructed runner," and I was just trying to see what the BU's logic was.

I never have disagreed with the award of third, just the BU's reason for the award as stated in the OP. As I stated clearly, at least twice, the only thing that matters is the umpire's judgement in this matter. Some BU's might have a flawed enough judgment to think that home would be the proper award.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

dropping the arm

Brings up another question, how long do you keep the arm out in the DDB position?

We have pretty much been taught recently to put it up when the OBS occurs then drop it.

I've heard others who say keep it up until just prior to the R/BR reaching the base you thought they would get had there not been OBS. I personally don't like this because it looks kinda silly running around the bases with your arm out.

Whats your thoughts and is there an "approved" ASA mechanic?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Brings up another question, how long do you keep the arm out in the DDB position?

We have pretty much been taught recently to put it up when the OBS occurs then drop it.

I've heard others who say keep it up until just prior to the R/BR reaching the base you thought they would get had there not been OBS. I personally don't like this because it looks kinda silly running around the bases with your arm out.

Whats your thoughts and is there an "approved" ASA mechanic?

In the past, you held it for as long as you had the obstructed runner protected. Once they're no longer protected, you would drop your arm. However, running like that made you look like a 5-year old playing "airplane" (minus the woosh and "nyeeeeearrrrum" sounds).

Now, keep your arm out long enough that anyone watching would notice it, then let it drop. Usually 3-5 seconds or so, give or take.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In the past, you held it for as long as you had the obstructed runner protected. Once they're no longer protected, you would drop your arm. However, running like that made you look like a 5-year old playing "airplane" (minus the woosh and "nyeeeeearrrrum" sounds).

WHAT???? When did they take the sounds effects out of the mechanic?

Now, keep your arm out long enough that anyone watching would notice it, then let it drop. Usually 3-5 seconds or so, give or take.

If for some reason, I'm not going to be moving much (rare), I might leave it out for the duration. However, as Dave says, long enough to figure everyone has seen it then down it goes.

[miker4657]

Do you think they would have got the call right had the B/R been thrown out after reaching the base he was going to after being obstructed?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by miker4657

Do you think they would have got the call right had the B/R been thrown out after reaching the base he was going to after being obstructed?

That's our job to get it right. A runner can't be put out between the two bases where they were obstructed. If the runner gets put out before reaching the base they would have reached, it's a dead ball, and the award(s) is/are made. Period, end of story.