Illegal Pitch Penalty Redux

[youngump]

So, the previous illegal pitch thread got me confused and I thought a new thread might make it easier for you all to straighten me out. I only had a few minutes to review the rules and came out lost. The book I was reading last night is Federation.

Sitch 1:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B3 0-0 count. B3 takes a delayed dead ball illegal pitch down the middle.

On the release, both runners break for the subsequent base. F2 throws to second and retires the runner coming in to second.


Ruling:
Batter did not become a batter runner so the penalty must be enforced

-- what I thought 24 hours ago --
Ball, R1 safe at 3B, R2 safe at 2B.

-- what the rules seem to say --
Ball, R1 safe at home, R2 is still out at 2B.
Because it's clear that the penalty is to be applied at the end of the action -- though maybe I'm just missing where it says penalty is from TOP.


I don't like the subsequent interpretation and think I'm just missing something or they've written it different from what everybody knows it means. I guess I thought the penalty was, cancel all the action on the play (no strike, no advance, no throw out) and then advance the runners.

But that would get very messy, because sitch 2 could be a nice long argument:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B3 0-0 count. B3 takes a delayed dead ball illegal pitch that is not in the strike zone.

R1 and R2 break on the pitch, F2 throws to F8 trying to throw to F4. R1 comes home on the overthrow and R2 is safe at third.

If I now announce that the pitcher was illegal, the batter still has a 1-0 count, and the runners have to go back to 2nd and 3rd, the OC is not going to be happy.

I'm going to go check both of my books on this after work today, but I'd appreciate if somebody could break it down for me first to make it crystal clear when I read it. Thanks.
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[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by youngump

Sitch 1:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. B3 0-0 count. B3 takes a delayed dead ball illegal pitch down the middle.

On the release, both runners break for the subsequent base. F2 throws to second and retires the runner coming in to second.


Ruling:
Batter did not become a batter runner so the penalty must be enforced

-- what I thought 24 hours ago --
Ball, R1 safe at 3B, R2 safe at 2B.

-- what the rules seem to say --
Ball, R1 safe at home, R2 is still out at 2B.
Because it's clear that the penalty is to be applied at the end of the action -- though maybe I'm just missing where it says penalty is from TOP.

What you would have then, would be a dead ball, ball on the batter, and the base runners awarded one base from the time of the pitch. Or...the coach could take the result of the play. (doubtful).That IS the penalty that is being enforced. While I cannot testify to how you reached your orginal conclusion, the outcome would still be the same.

[SRW]

So, assume the called IP was a swinging strike. As the BU or PU, the mechanic is to call a DB, and advance any runners. Remember, runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out on an IP. (NFHS 8.4.3.d)

I see your point tho... WHEN does the ball become dead? After the batter doesn't make contact, or at the conclusion of playing action (which could be considered after F2 throws down.).

BTW, the end of your second sitch: you'd better not announce that the pitcher is illegal; the pitch was.

[Tru_in_Blu]

In the NFHS rule set, if an illegal pitch is delivered [delayed dead ball] the O-coach will only have an option if the batter hits the ball [fair or foul] or the batter becomes a baserunner. The batter can become a BR without hitting the ball on a dropped third strike [live ball] if appropriate conditions are met, by being hit by a pitch [dead ball], a base on balls [live ball], or catcher's obstruction.

I think it would be a rare play indeed to have an illegal pitch followed by catcher's obstruction. The penalties are slightly different, with no option for the obstruction call if batter reaches 1B safely and all other runners advancing at least one base. But since the IP was called first, I think it might have priority.

Case book plays:
6.2.2 Situation C: R1 is on second base. B2 hits an illegal pitch and reaches first base safely. R1 (a) is thrown out at third base, or (b) is thrown out at home, or (c) is safe at third base. Ruling: In (a), (b) and (c), the coach of the team at bat has the option of the play or the penalty for an illegal pitch.

6.2.2 Situation D: With R1 on third and R2 on first, B3 hits an illegal pitch to deep left-center field. R1 scores, R2 reaches third and B3 stops at first. Ruling: Even though B3 reached first base safely and R1 and R2 advanced at least one base, the coach of the team at bat has the option of the play or the penalty since B3 hit an illegal pitch. (6.2.2 Penalty Exception)

See also the 3 situations on catcher's obstruction - 8.1.1 situations G, H, and I.

Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Youngump, you are confusing and mixing a few different issues.

The penalty notes that the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action if the ball is pitched, not that the penalty is applied based on the results of playing action. The purpose is to allow the possibility of the batter hitting the ball or becoming a baserunner.

Granted the wording is unclear, and might lead to your conclusion, but the award is a ball on the batter and a base to all baserunners without liability to be put out. And, that award is from the time of the pitch; that is when it became illegal, and that is the time it is called, therefore, like all other awarded bases, that is the basic time of the award.

So, if the ball is not hit, and the batter does not become a batterrunner, the penalty MUST be applied. No option, even if the runners circle the bases like a merry-go-round. In your sit1, what you originally thought (but overthought). In your sit2, the coach has no option, either; the ball was not hit, the batter did not become a batterrunner, so the OC has no available option, just the illegal pitch remedy.

So, to summarize, the enforcement in NFHS is absolute; the coach ONLY has the option if the ball is hit or the batter becomes a baserunner. If either condition is met, the coach ALWAYS has an option; if neither condition is met, the coach has NO option.

In NCAA and ASA, the enforcement is different. The coach always has the option, as long as the ball is pitched; UNLESS batter and all runners advance at least one base safely (then the result of the play always stands, without a coach's option).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by SRW

I see your point tho... WHEN does the ball become dead? After the batter doesn't make contact, or at the conclusion of playing action (which could be considered after F2 throws down.).

From the rules as posted in the other thread by Dakota:
The ball is dead at the end of playing action, if the ball is pitched.

Thanks Steve for breaking it down.

Perhaps, the right way to square this is that if the award is from TOP then they weren't out at the awarded base since they had no liability. But if the out is after the awarded base it's meant to stand. And subsequent advances are fine because they advanced during a live ball before being awarded the previous base. Much like stealing third from first after the batter gets ball 4.
If the runners aren't actively moving, call time immediately, if they are wait and see.

One small thing:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And, that award is from the time of the pitch; that is when it became illegal, and that is the time it is called, therefore, like all other awarded bases, that is the basic time of the award.

The time of the award can't be when the pitch becomes illegal because the runners are still bound to their base. It has to be awarded once the ball is released.
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[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

From the rules as posted in the other thread by Dakota:
The ball is dead at the end of playing action, if the ball is pitched.

Thanks Steve for breaking it down.

Perhaps, the right way to square this is that if the award is from TOP then they weren't out at the awarded base since they had no liability. But if the out is after the awarded base it's meant to stand. And subsequent advances are fine because they advanced during a live ball before being awarded the previous base. Much like stealing third from first after the batter gets ball 4.
If the runners aren't actively moving, call time immediately, if they are wait and see.

One small thing:



The time of the award can't be when the pitch becomes illegal because the runners are still bound to their base. It has to be awarded once the ball is released.

I think you are still seeing something that isn't there. In NFHS, if the ball isn't hit, and the batter does not become a batter-runner, then not having an option means, in effect, there was no subsequent playing action. Everything reverts to the time of the pitch, when the illegal pitch happened, and when it was called. That means, yes, the award is from the time of the pitch; one base from the base they were bound to prior to the pitch.

No subsequent action also means they cannot be out at any base; not at, prior to, or even after the awarded base. They are, as the award states, granted that award without liability. If they overrun in play that didn't happen, then they still aren't out. Once the ball is not hit, and the batter does not become a batter-runner, nothing has happened; the dead ball from the illegal pitch is the only possible result in NFHS.

In NCAA and ASA, since there is always the option, then subsequent play remains. But if the coach can and does accept the award, the award is one base from the time of the pitch; even if they overran that awarded base and were out in the play that has been declined by the coach with the option.

All of A (the award for the illegal pitch; or all of B (the result of the play). Period.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I think you are still seeing something that isn't there. In NFHS, if the ball isn't hit, and the batter does not become a batter-runner, then not having an option means, in effect, there was no subsequent playing action. Everything reverts to the time of the pitch, when the illegal pitch happened, and when it was called. That means, yes, the award is from the time of the pitch; one base from the base they were bound to prior to the pitch.

No subsequent action also means they cannot be out at any base; not at, prior to, or even after the awarded base. They are, as the award states, granted that award without liability. If they overrun in play that didn't happen, then they still aren't out. Once the ball is not hit, and the batter does not become a batter-runner, nothing has happened; the dead ball from the illegal pitch is the only possible result in NFHS.

In NCAA and ASA, since there is always the option, then subsequent play remains. But if the coach can and does accept the award, the award is one base from the time of the pitch; even if they overran that awarded base and were out in the play that has been declined by the coach with the option.

All of A (the award for the illegal pitch; or all of B (the result of the play). Period.

Nope, I'm reading something that's very clearly there. The ball is not dead at the end of the pitch. It's dead at the end of playing action. Your way is certainly simpler though.
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