State finals illegal uniform redux

[Amesman]

... And that Illinois team stuck by its guns and wore its illegal stripes again in the third-place game. Check out this piece -- with anonymous officials' comments included:


Lawndale shows up in same uniforms for 3rd-place game
Assessed with technical before game vs. Leo

By Bob Sakamoto | Tribune staff reporter

PEORIA - Less than 24 hours after being penalized for a uniform violation, North Lawndale was back at Carver Arena in the same white jerseys with the illegal stripe.

One referee walked over to press row, shook his head and said: "It's those same uniforms. I'm going to have to assess a technical foul.''

Leo's James Pointer made one of two free throws to start Saturday's Class 3A third-place game and Leo led 1-0 before the tipoff.

In Friday's 3A semifinal, North Lawndale also began the game trailing 1-0 before the opening tipoff. Illinois High School Association Assistant Executive Director Kurt Gibson ruled that Lawndale's illegal uniform mandated a technical foul.

Champaign Centennial's Jeff Johnson made one of two technical free throws. As it turned out, North Lawndale lost by that one point, 66-65.

After his team's 91-77 victory over Leo on Saturday, North Lawndale coach Lewis Thorpe said he wasn't trying to send a message to the IHSA by showing up in the same illegal uniforms.

"We wore the same uniform we have worn all year,'' Thorpe said. "We had the uniforms from our sophomore team with us. They are in my hotel room.

"But when I checked with Kurt Gibson on Friday, he said that those uniforms were also in violation of the rules. Now, we wore those uniforms all last year---including the 2A state championship game---and nobody ever said anything."

Gibson confirmed that Thorpe had offered to wear last year's uniforms for Friday's game.

"But as I told coach Thorpe, those uniforms were also illegal,'' Gibson said.

North Lawndale activities director Brandon Lenore delivered last year's uniforms to Peoria on Friday morning.

Two officials spoke to the Tribune on the condition of anonymity.

"I thought North Lawndale got a raw deal,'' one referee said. "But we have to enforce the rule. I was aware of the uniform rule, but I know some refs didn't know about it.

"All the officials did have a meeting with Kurt Gibson before the state tournament began and the uniform rule was clarified.''

What about next season if this official encounters a team wearing an illegal uniform?

"The first time it happens, I will issue a warning to the team,'' the referee said. "If I work their game a second time and they're wearing the same uniforms, I'll call a technical foul.

"If the officials had given North Lawndale a technical foul for their uniforms at the regionals or sectionals, it might have been a different outcome in Peoria.''

Another high school referee said he had not seen any teams with uniform violations during the season.

"I knew the rule that came from the National Federation (of State High School Associations),'' he said. "I didn't see any violations until this weekend. I agree that some referees did not know about this uniform rule.''

Sitting on his bench minutes before the Class 3A championship game, Oswego coach Kevin Schnable said the Panthers had an issue with their uniforms at the start of the season.

"The inseam of the jersey top was 1½-inches too wide,'' Schnable. "We measured them when they arrived.

"We reported it to the IHSA and they gave us a letter that allowed us to wear the uniforms until we could order new ones. We had our new uniforms by the middle of December."

[mick]

Originally Posted by Amesman

"The inseam of the jersey top was 1½-inches too wide,'' Schnable. "We measured them when they arrived...."

Inseam on a jersey?
Where is that and what rule was violated ?
Thanks.

[falsecut]

Rule 3.4.1e "Side inserts, ...., shall be no more than 4 inches in width..."

[falsecut]

Two officials spoke to the Tribune on the condition of anonymity.

"I thought North Lawndale got a raw deal,'' one referee said. "But we have to enforce the rule. I was aware of the uniform rule, but I know some refs didn't know about it.

This aggravates me on two levels. First, refs should shut up and not talk to the media. Second, I'd like to know which refs didn't know that there were rules for uniforms. Seems all we've done is talk about this for more than two years. You'd have to be in a coma to not know about the uniform rules, at least as a varsity official. And these are supposed to be our most knowledgeable guys.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by falsecut

Second, I'd like to know which refs didn't know that there were rules for uniforms.

Are you saying that you could quote all the rules on uniforms without looking them up in the rulebook and you would be able to identify the exact inches of a seam or the size of a number? If you can, you are a much better person that I am and most here. And as someone that works multiple sports and deals with uniform regulations in all those sports, some thing would not be easily identified by me or anyone unless brought to our attention. And then we would have to look it up to make sure we were following the rule properly. Most things officials would know are the color requirements, but not how long or deep the seam is on the uniform.

Originally Posted by falsecut

Seems all we've done is talk about this for more than two years. You'd have to be in a coma to not know about the uniform rules, at least as a varsity official. And these are supposed to be our most knowledgeable guys.

I have been around this place for longer than two years, I cannot think of a single discussion on uniforms that ever was discussed about the size of a seam. Maybe you brought that up, but I have not once other than a rules meeting I attended that even talked in any detail about the seam. Usually the manufacture knows those things because it is apart of their business and they would not sell a uniform that is known to not follow NF standards. It would be counter-productive to sell something that is going to constantly.

Also last year the IHSA did not want officials dealing with uniform issues (so not two years for everyone) or giving Ts for uniform violations. We were told to only report illegal uniforms directly to the IHSA and that the IHSA would handle it. And I cannot speak of a single situation I was involved in that there was a uniform violation either by me observing them, or being brought to my attention by a coach or school or even fan (which they like to bring a lot of things to your attention).

Maybe you are perfect, but most of us are not concerned about things that have little or nothing to do with playing the game. If you can see the numbers, that is all most officials are going to care about.

Peace

[ODJ]

I'm not clear when Mr. gibson informed the crew of the violation and that a T would assessed. Was it on the floor, or in the locker room beforehand?

N L has played in these uniforms for two seasons. Either the legality was ignored and not reported, or not known. (Which is worse?)
Schools are responsible for knowing the proper uniform, and the manufacturer should have known when they constructed them. Bat and ball makers know the specs they have to meet, why not the outfitters?

Better know your uniform codes for next season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODJ

I'm not clear when Mr. gibson informed the crew of the violation and that a T would assessed. Was it on the floor, or in the locker room beforehand?

Thursday night before the tournament.

Originally Posted by ODJ

N L has played in these uniforms for two seasons. Either the legality was ignored and not reported, or not known. (Which is worse?)
Schools are responsible for knowing the proper uniform, and the manufacturer should have known when they constructed them. Bat and ball makers know the specs they have to meet, why not the outfitters?

Better know your uniform codes for next season.

I will likely do what Billy Mac said in the previous thread on this issue.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will likely do what Billy Mac said in the previous thread on this issue.

You mean reminisce about Kurt Gibson punching his fist in then air as he limped around the bases after his clutch home run in the 1988 World Series?

[falsecut]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are you saying that you could quote all the rules on uniforms without looking them up in the rulebook and you would be able to identify the exact inches of a seam or the size of a number?

Unfortunately, yes, I did know that it was four inches. I hate having to know that kind of trivial nonsense but I do remember a lot of it. And numbers are six inches in the back, four in the front, since you ask.

But that is hardly the point. I don't carry my tape measure to measure whether or not the inseam is four inches or five, but I know that an inseam that is swooped and not vertical is not legal. And even if I didn't T it up if I saw it, I could file a special report to the state reporting that I believed I saw an illegal uniform but was unable to determine it for sure. That could have prevented this little fiasco at the finals.

I have been around this place for longer than two years, I cannot think of a single discussion on uniforms that ever was discussed about the size of a seam.

Maybe you missed the complaining about our being the fashion police at our association meetings then? I didn't say it was necessarily on the forum.

Also last year the IHSA did not want officials dealing with uniform issues (so not two years for everyone) or giving Ts for uniform violations. We were told to only report illegal uniforms directly to the IHSA and that the IHSA would handle it.

So you're saying that because we weren't going to enforce a penalty, you took the year off looking for it? Wouldn't you have to look at it to report it to the IHSA? Or did you decide it was too big of a nuisance to bother? You know, one of the reasons that we didn't enforce the rule was that it was seen as way too harsh to be giving out five Ts at the beginning of the game. That was part of the complaining at the association meetings and why the IHSA decided to waive the rule for a year. But they didn't waive reporting the violation.

Maybe you are perfect, but most of us are not concerned about things that have little or nothing to do with playing the game. If you can see the numbers, that is all most officials are going to care about.

No, not perfect by a long shot. But your comment goes to the crux of the problem. If nobody bothers to enforce it over the first 33 games, then all of a sudden it becomes an issue in the 34th one and a big deal when if we were doing our JOBS for the other games, we wouldn't be talking about this. How many times have we shown up and directed that the leg brace/taped earring/chain/beads or metal in the hair be removed or remediated and been told, "You're the first guy to tell us that all year"? Isn't consistent application of the rules what we all strive to accomplish?

So Jeff, what else that has "little or nothing to do with playing the game" do you feel we can all safely ignore?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by falsecut

Unfortunately, yes, I did know that it was four inches. I hate having to know that kind of trivial nonsense but I do remember a lot of it. And numbers are six inches in the back, four in the front, since you ask.

I am glad you remember it, I did not. And considering in 13 seasons of varsity ball I have never had a coach ever complain to me about a uniform issue in a basketball game, I can say that it was not a priority in my basketball officiating life.

Originally Posted by falsecut

But that is hardly the point. I don't carry my tape measure to measure whether or not the inseam is four inches or five, but I know that an inseam that is swooped and not vertical is not legal. And even if I didn't T it up if I saw it, I could file a special report to the state reporting that I believed I saw an illegal uniform but was unable to determine it for sure. That could have prevented this little fiasco at the finals.

You can only file a report if you know the jersey is illegal. If you do not know or no one complains (which teams have the opportunity to do), then it goes unnoticed. For the record, all schools had to submit a copy or picture of their uniform. If the IHSA felt strongly about this, they could have informed the officials these uniforms were illegal and they needed to have the proper rules enforced. This was known by the IHSA for some time now.

Originally Posted by falsecut

Maybe you missed the complaining about our being the fashion police at our association meetings then? I didn't say it was necessarily on the forum.

Officials and coaches were at rules meetings wondering why any of this mattered in the bigger scheme of things. So I did not miss any complaining about it.

Originally Posted by falsecut

So you're saying that because we weren't going to enforce a penalty, you took the year off looking for it? Wouldn't you have to look at it to report it to the IHSA? Or did you decide it was too big of a nuisance to bother? You know, one of the reasons that we didn't enforce the rule was that it was seen as way too harsh to be giving out five Ts at the beginning of the game. That was part of the complaining at the association meetings and why the IHSA decided to waive the rule for a year. But they didn't waive reporting the violation.

I do not think you actually read what I said. I simply said that if there was an illegal uniform we were to report it. I cannot speak for you, but I have not seen an illegal uniform that either I identified or was brought to my attention at the varsity level (which is the only place this rule applies) was actually illegal. Most uniforms I have seen have real seam that would even be seen as illegal. If you do not have an illegal uniform, you do not have anything to report. And I certainly did not have N. Lawndale the past two years or any years for that matter. And the fact that they wore those uniforms last season and not a single person ever mentioned their legality, is telling how clear or how understood that rule is, no matter how many years the rule has been talked about? Did you write the state anytime you saw an illegal uniform? Or did you even have one to write about in the first place?

Originally Posted by falsecut

No, not perfect by a long shot. But your comment goes to the crux of the problem. If nobody bothers to enforce it over the first 33 games, then all of a sudden it becomes an issue in the 34th one and a big deal when if we were doing our JOBS for the other games, we wouldn't be talking about this. How many times have we shown up and directed that the leg brace/taped earring/chain/beads or metal in the hair be removed or remediated and been told, "You're the first guy to tell us that all year"? Isn't consistent application of the rules what we all strive to accomplish?

I cannot speak for you but I did not have to tell many players to remove items that were deemed illegal. The only thing that was a problem the last several years, were those "LiveStrong" bans and the occasional rubber band (which are often not seen at all for several minutes). And now that those things are illegal in multiple sports and coaches have insisted they cannot wear them because they are obviously illegal and not many even attempt to put those things on anymore. And the thing you just said we have to deal with is mostly things I deal with in the off season, not the real season.

Originally Posted by falsecut

So Jeff, what else that has "little or nothing to do with playing the game" do you feel we can all safely ignore?

I find it interesting that people like you cannot have a discussion about a rule without always thinking someone is trying to ignore something. I did not say ignore anything, it is about context and priority. And working varsity games, most teams do not show you their uniforms until after their warm-ups and they are introduced. We do not know what the color of their undershirts is or what jewelry they may have on, because they are usually covered up with a warm-up shirt or jacket of some kind. And I do not know about you, I did not nit-pick an undershirt that might have been slightly off color to the jersey. For one, the other team did not care, and only making an issue out of it would cause another problem. If you want to go around and tell everyone to follow the rule and measure every number (which the size of the number is apart of the rule too) and be my guest. And if the IHSA had a problem with the decisions of their officials, they can also take action. BTW, the crew that worked that game was assigned the Championship game of 4A and they had previously had that team in the Super-Sectional. It must not have been much of a big deal in the bigger scheme of things.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really. We all know there's a rule that says home wears white. But are you not reading the rest of the threads on this; several refs here (some who do solely varsity) would have never caught an illegal side panel.

*Raises hand*

[amusedofficial]

The newspaper story says the score in each game wsa 1-0 "before the tipoff"

Why was there a tipoff? Or did the author mean to say it was 1-0 without a tipoff?

[falsecut]

There was no tip off. The author used "tip off" as the same as "before the beginning of the game" not as a jump ball.

[falsecut]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I find it interesting that people like you cannot have a discussion about a rule without always thinking someone is trying to ignore something. I did not say ignore anything, it is about context and priority.

Sure you did. Unfortunately we have two threads about this issue but through the miracle of copy and paste......

"Finally, I would not have even noticed this was a rules violation and frankly would not have cared."

So Jeff, once again, what else that has "little or nothing to do with playing the game" do you feel we can all safely ignore? Which other rules violations are you not caring about?

[mick]

Originally Posted by falsecut

Which other rules violations are you not caring about?

This is an old, overused question used to defer attention from one unwinnable argument to another. An argument of this type often results in closed threads.