Does the run score or is it a timming play?

[first2third]

Bases loaded two outs 3-2 count on the batter, runners are off with the pitch, batter receives ball four. Runner on second base going on the pitch overruns third and the F2 throws to F5 and F5 tags the runner out before they get back to third. The runner who was on third at the time of the pitch does not cross home plate before the out was recorded on the trailing runner at third. I know that the runner at third can advance without liablilty to be put out, but should the run score even though the third out was recorded before they touched home? I felt this was a timming play and said the run did not count, but on an awarded base I am not sure??? Help so I don't mess this up again!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Deja vu all over again. There's another post somewhere with this exact situation.

Ted

[Dholloway1962]

Bases loaded ball 4 on batter all runners are awarded 1 base and may advance further with liability to be put out. So the runner on 3rd would score even tho the out came first. It is not a timing play.

It was discussed on this forum some time ago but I couldn't find the postings.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Does the run score? from Sep 5, 2008

[ronald]

sorry but run does not score in ASA per Mr Ryan.

will get it just wait a second. here it is

Ron,

I am sorry for the delay in getting an answer to you. Our rules are clear on this situation Rule 5 Section 5 B 2 of the ASA rule book states “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is a result… a runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate. In your play since the runner from 3B did not touch home prior to the third out being the tag on the runner that rounded 3B then no run would score.

I do know other organization say the run counts but I also know they have specific wording in their rules for that run o count. In our game, ASA Softball our rules say NO.



Kevin Ryan

ASA Supervisor of Umpires

[marvin]

NFHS casebook 9.1.1 Situation D: With two outs and R1, R2, and R3 on base, B6 receives ball 4. R3 touches second base and then is tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home plate. Ruling: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 exception b)

[ronald]

As we see, different results based on the governing body.

ASA - no run
Fed - it counts
NCAA - it counts if I remember correctly discussion from before

[Tru_in_Blu]

I know NFHS is clear that a base on balls is an awarded base. In ASA, they are careful to avoid the use of "award" in defining a base on balls.

However, 8-1-C states:
When four balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded first base.

Not to doubt what KR said, but this wording leaves the ASA interpretation somewhat in doubt. If the BR is granted an awarded base, then all other runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out. Essentially, this is the logic applied by the NFHS ruling.

ASA 8.5.A for reference to base runners being able to advance without liability.

ASA 8-2-M is another example of inconsistent wording.
1. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the white portion is fair.
2. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the colored portion is foul.

A line drive hits smack in the middle of 1B, meaning half on the white side and half on the colored side. 99 and 44/100s of the umpire community call this ball fair. But by rule, what? It can ONLY be fair or foul, not both. But the wording of the above does not allow for that. I know what they meant. I suspect this will be a question on a future ASA umpire's exam with no right answer.

[CelticNHBlue]

NCAA interpretation; run scores.

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If the BR is granted an awarded base, then all other runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out.

I think the issue Kevin has is to say that the runner did advance without liability, but they went beyond their protection when they passed the awarded base and are now liable to be put out, and if before the runner reaches home, the out counts and not the run.

[vcblue]

After long thought (5 seconds) I do not see a conflict in ASA’s interpretation. The runner on 3rd was awarded home due to B4oB and being forced. Even on awarded bases runners are still obligated to do certain thing such as tagging the bases in the correct order, not missing a base. And, when the ball is live with two outs, making sure she steps on home plate before one of her teammates does something stupid like getting tagged out due to overrunning a base.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I know NFHS is clear that a base on balls is an awarded base. In ASA, they are careful to avoid the use of "award" in defining a base on balls.

However, 8-1-C states:
When four balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded first base.

Not to doubt what KR said, but this wording leaves the ASA interpretation somewhat in doubt. If the BR is granted an awarded base, then all other runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out. Essentially, this is the logic applied by the NFHS ruling.

Yes, but I see NFHS Casebook wording above in doubt. Since when is a baserunner AWARDED a base for a fourth ball to the batter? If that were so, then would not a runner from 3B score in the same situation if not forced? No, to me that is inconsistent.

ASA 8.5.A for reference to base runners being able to advance without liability.

ASA 8-2-M is another example of inconsistent wording.
1. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the white portion is fair.
2. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the colored portion is foul.

A line drive hits smack in the middle of 1B, meaning half on the white side and half on the colored side. 99 and 44/100s of the umpire community call this ball fair. But by rule, what? It can ONLY be fair or foul, not both. But the wording of the above does not allow for that. I know what they meant. I suspect this will be a question on a future ASA umpire's exam with no right answer.

ASA 1.Fair Ball.E

[Tru_in_Blu]

Hi Wade,

I understand KR's argument. I'm just pointing out that there is the possibility of a loophole in that a BR gets an awarded base which should/would force other runners to advance [without liability].

I think the other 2 associations mentioned {NCAA and NFHS} have a better take on this situation than ASA. That said, however, if I encounter the situation while wearing my ASA cap, I will invoke the KR logic.

Ted

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA 1.Fair Ball.E

B. Bounds over or past first or third base, which is in fair territory, regardless of where the ball hits after going over the base.

Is the colored portion of the double-base NOT first base?

We both know that if the ball hits 1B in the middle, it's a fair ball. My point is that a ball can hit the orange part of the base [and the white at the same time] and will be ruled fair. The rule says if it hits the colored part of the base, it's a foul ball. This is false.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

I believe this question was on an NCAA test at some level. If the information afforded me was correct, those in a position of interpretating NCAA rules acknowledged that the runner was beyond the base and possibly in jeopardy, but score the run anyway.

And that is fine. And when asked the question by a fellow umpire, I hesitated because I knew where it was going. Is one interpretation more correct than the other? No, because that is the way each wants their rules applied.

Will they ever be the same? Maybe, but I would say it is more likely ASA would move before NCAA would ever give it a thought.