Does the run score or is it a timming play?

[first2third]

Bases loaded two outs 3-2 count on the batter, runners are off with the pitch, batter receives ball four. Runner on second base going on the pitch overruns third and the F2 throws to F5 and F5 tags the runner out before they get back to third. The runner who was on third at the time of the pitch does not cross home plate before the out was recorded on the trailing runner at third. I know that the runner at third can advance without liablilty to be put out, but should the run score even though the third out was recorded before they touched home? I felt this was a timming play and said the run did not count, but on an awarded base I am not sure??? Help so I don't mess this up again!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Deja vu all over again. There's another post somewhere with this exact situation.

Ted

[Dholloway1962]

Bases loaded ball 4 on batter all runners are awarded 1 base and may advance further with liability to be put out. So the runner on 3rd would score even tho the out came first. It is not a timing play.

It was discussed on this forum some time ago but I couldn't find the postings.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Does the run score? from Sep 5, 2008

[ronald]

sorry but run does not score in ASA per Mr Ryan.

will get it just wait a second. here it is

Ron,

I am sorry for the delay in getting an answer to you. Our rules are clear on this situation Rule 5 Section 5 B 2 of the ASA rule book states “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is a result… a runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate. In your play since the runner from 3B did not touch home prior to the third out being the tag on the runner that rounded 3B then no run would score.

I do know other organization say the run counts but I also know they have specific wording in their rules for that run o count. In our game, ASA Softball our rules say NO.



Kevin Ryan

ASA Supervisor of Umpires

[marvin]

NFHS casebook 9.1.1 Situation D: With two outs and R1, R2, and R3 on base, B6 receives ball 4. R3 touches second base and then is tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home plate. Ruling: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 exception b)

[ronald]

As we see, different results based on the governing body.

ASA - no run
Fed - it counts
NCAA - it counts if I remember correctly discussion from before

[Tru_in_Blu]

I know NFHS is clear that a base on balls is an awarded base. In ASA, they are careful to avoid the use of "award" in defining a base on balls.

However, 8-1-C states:
When four balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded first base.

Not to doubt what KR said, but this wording leaves the ASA interpretation somewhat in doubt. If the BR is granted an awarded base, then all other runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out. Essentially, this is the logic applied by the NFHS ruling.

ASA 8.5.A for reference to base runners being able to advance without liability.

ASA 8-2-M is another example of inconsistent wording.
1. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the white portion is fair.
2. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the colored portion is foul.

A line drive hits smack in the middle of 1B, meaning half on the white side and half on the colored side. 99 and 44/100s of the umpire community call this ball fair. But by rule, what? It can ONLY be fair or foul, not both. But the wording of the above does not allow for that. I know what they meant. I suspect this will be a question on a future ASA umpire's exam with no right answer.

[CelticNHBlue]

If memory serves me correctly, the NCAA issue came up due to it occurring a game (shocker).

But there was one small difference between the game situation and the original post. In the game, it was a game ending bases loaded walk where runners reached their base and began the game winning celebration by rounding thier bag and heading for home. A headsy defense tagged one of the runners prior to the run scoring and hence the question.

The NCAA interpretation started with this scenario, where the game is over when the run scores and whether or not the other runners were still in jeopardy. Agree or disagree, the NCAA determined that they did not want to interject themselves in this situation and, in their mind, over officiate the situation. Then, in lieu of consistency, they applied that to the op situation where the run still counts and the inning ending out is recorded.

[WES_CT_UMP]

This straight from the NCAA Umpires exam. Run scores.