Batter awarded 1st base?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by greymule

Make me ASA king for a day and gone is the rule that allows the offense to benefit by deliberately committing interference.

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

The rule applies any time the catcher does not throw the ball directly back to the pitcher with no runners on, except after a strikeout (can throw around), a put out (can throw around), or an attempted put out by the catcher.

Yes; after a foul ball that is retrieved by the catcher. Yes, a mistaken attempt is not an attempt (except in NCAA); there has to be someone to attempt to put out.

ASA 8.7-B, NFHS 6-3-2, NCAA 10-16 (NCAA does grant the added exception of the BR runs even if not entitled to run)

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by greymule

I still want to know whether a "ball" is awarded during a dead ball (e.g., after a foul) or after F2 throws to 1B in a mistaken attempt to get a putout on the BR.

On a dead ball I say no, how can you award anything that occurs during a dead ball?

On the 2nd question I would say if there was some type of legitimate confusion based on a call that the umpire had to make (check swing for example) then I say you have nothing, especially if the runner takes off as you first mentioned. Rules allow an umpire to correct this.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by greymule

You are of course correct that we cannot ignore even idiotic rules. In 10u rec, however, they're not paying you to make a shambles of the game. Are you going to call every illegal pitch in 10u rec? Is your strike zone going to be as the book defines it? Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound, or are you going to call time out to end the chaos when the runners stop?

Incidentally, I can cite some rules that I would never call, partly because they're bad rules, partly because almost nobody knows them.

And that's basically what I was getting at. If I'm calling a purely rec game with small kids, I'm not going to go by the exact letter of the rulebook, and you'd be deluding yourself if you say you'd do otherwise. As long as the defense does not gain some sort of advantage and as long as the integrity of the game is preserved, I will not call it for small kids. If a coach wants to protest it, s/he may, and I'll let the league decide if they really want me to nitpick every rule on a 10U game.

Mind you, I don't call FP. I only call SP. However, for the first 4 years of my umpiring career, I called kids' games, ranging from age 9 through 14.

[wadeintothem]

A rules discussion is separate from an "officiating rec league / beer league" discussion IMO.

[greymule]

NCAA calls for a warning on the first offense (F2 not returning the ball to the pitcher) and ejection (!) on the second.

Batter hits a pop toward the 3B dugout. F2 and F5 give chase. F2 dives in a vain attempt to make the catch, and smothers the ball with her body. F2 pulls the ball out from under her and while still lying on the ground flips it to F5, who is standing a few feet away.

I want to see an umpire force in the winning run by calling a ball on that.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by greymule

NCAA calls for a warning on the first offense (F2 not returning the ball to the pitcher) and ejection (!) on the second.

Batter hits a pop toward the 3B dugout. F2 and F5 give chase. F2 dives in a vain attempt to make the catch, and smothers the ball with her body. F2 pulls the ball out from under her and while still lying on the ground flips it to F5, who is standing a few feet away.

I want to see an umpire force in the winning run by calling a ball on that.

Calls like that are not appreciated....

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by greymule

Are you going to enforce the lookback rule according to the book? Are you going to let runners break for the next base on the throw to the mound,

Whatsa "mound"?

[ronald]

Gotta go with what Mike said "I did not see that, coach"

[greymule]

I want to end a state tournament with this call:

Bases loaded, 2 out, 3-2 count. Bottom 7, tie game.

Batter fouls a ball off the backstop. As F2 retrieves it, F3 goes to the circle to say something to F1. From the backstop, F2 throws the ball directly to F1 in the circle, but F3 sticks out her glove and catches it.

Ball 4! Hooray! Gave over! Great call, ump!

At a meeting last spring, our state UIC himself gave us (county UICs) an example of "bad judgment" (his term) that involved calling a game-ending ball 4 or illegal pitch in a state tournament. I wish I could remember exactly what it was, but I think it involved a resin bag or a replacement glove or some other technical violation that nobody in the park had ever heard of. In essence, what he was saying was, "Ignore technical violations in crucial situations. Don't end a tournament on bull****." My own thought was, "Better not to write the rule in the first place."

Personally, I'd like to see the umpire given wider discretion. On things like F2 not throwing to the pitcher, my king-for-a-day rule would be simply that the catcher shall not delay the game by failing to return the ball directly to the pitcher. The book could recommend that the umpire give a warning and call a ball for future violations, something like calling a ball for stepping out of the box.

Whatsa "mound"?

You got me there. I simply cannot shake the habit of using that term, just as, try as he might, Ralph Kramden couldn't avoid saying "puh-LOP-uh-neez" for "POE-lo POE-neez" (if you remember that episode).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

I want to end a state tournament with this call:

Bases loaded, 2 out, 3-2 count. Bottom 7, tie game.

Batter fouls a ball off the backstop. As F2 retrieves it, F3 goes to the circle to say something to F1. From the backstop, F2 throws the ball directly to F1 in the circle, but F3 sticks out her glove and catches it.

Ball 4! Hooray! Gave over! Great call, ump!

And here I thought you were smarter than that. Steve has already addressed this.

Speaking ASA. The rule is not in effect with runners on base or when the batter becomes a BR. (6FP.7.B, 6MP.7.B, 6SP.6.B, 6SP16".6.B)

At a meeting last spring, our state UIC himself gave us (county UICs) an example of "bad judgment" (his term) that involved calling a game-ending ball 4 or illegal pitch in a state tournament. I wish I could remember exactly what it was, but I think it involved a resin bag or a replacement glove or some other technical violation that nobody in the park had ever heard of. In essence, what he was saying was, "Ignore technical violations in crucial situations. Don't end a tournament on bull****." My own thought was, "Better not to write the rule in the first place."

Well, there is a team in the other dugout that is supposed to be playing by the same rules. What about them? Does a red traffic light only apply to those who slow down when they see an amber light or everyone?

That said, an intelligent umpire will use preventive umpiring to avoid some of the dumber things that occur on the field. However, some people just aren't smart enough to know when they are being given a opportunity
to not do something stupid.

Unfortunately, there are too many coaches AND umpires who look for that "gotcha!" out. And, no, I would rather a game NOT end on a controversial call or some super double-secret rule that only umpires remember. However, it isn't the umpire who ends the game, it is one of the teams on the field.

Personally, I'd like to see the umpire given wider discretion. On things like F2 not throwing to the pitcher, my king-for-a-day rule would be simply that the catcher shall not delay the game by failing to return the ball directly to the pitcher. The book could recommend that the umpire give a warning and call a ball for future violations, something like calling a ball for stepping out of the box.

The only problem with that is the "discretion" often becomes a GAGA crutch for some umpires. And all of a sudden, a rule is never enforced by some no matter how often or ridiculous it becomes on the field. This also can turn into a disservice to the teams and other umpires when a team runs into a situation where some of the antics or previous allowances are not available without repercussion.

The umpires that understand the game know when and where certain things should be handled one way or the other and unless a serious injustice toward the opposition is the result of such discretion, it is often accepted and, that too, can be reliant upon the level or class of the game being played.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by greymule

I want to end a state tournament with this call:

Bases loaded, 2 out, 3-2 count. Bottom 7, tie game.

Batter fouls a ball off the backstop. As F2 retrieves it, F3 goes to the circle to say something to F1. From the backstop, F2 throws the ball directly to F1 in the circle, but F3 sticks out her glove and catches it.

Ball 4! Hooray! Gave over! Great call, ump!

You'd lose the protest. The rule doesn't apply with runners on base.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And here I thought you were smarter than that. Steve has already addressed this.

Speaking ASA. The rule is not in effect with runners on base or when the batter becomes a BR. (6FP.7.B, 6MP.7.B, 6SP.6.B, 6SP16".6.B)

Gah! 2 minutes too late.

[greymule]

"The rule doesn't apply with runners on base."

Yes, I blew it. I'll stick by my other comments, though.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Whatsa "mound"?

A hill.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by greymule

The book could recommend that the umpire give a warning and call a ball for future violations, something like calling a ball for stepping out of the box

Originally Posted by greymule

I'll stick by my other comments, though.

You sure want to stick with the part I highlighted above? I believe it would be a strike