The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 11:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 68
When does player officially leave the game

Team has 9 players to start the game. Player gets hurt as BR when she is called out. She does not play on defense for 2 innings. When her next time at bat comes up, she bats. Since the team only had 9 players, she was never replaced by a substitute and the team played defense with 8 players.

Question: Did she officially leave the game when she got hurt and re-entered to bat, or was she still officially in the game even though she did not play defense? Remember, she never missed a time at bat.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 12:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Speaking ASA, I think you're looking for something that isn't there. She leaves the game when she ceases to play her position or bat in her spot.
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 12:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
The team played shorthanded for 2 innings. The player who leaves the game under the shorthanded rule may not reenter. ASA 4-1-D-2-f.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 12:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Rules set is important to this response; in every case, the result is a forfeit, just different when (and if you had the opportunity be proactive and save the forfeit).

NCAA; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, game ended in a forfeit.

ASA; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, they were playing shorthanded. Unless you (umpire) invoked the blood rule, that player is no longer eligible to play (4.1-D(2)f), and her batting later was an illegal player. The penalty for her illegal re-entry is forfeit (4.8-A Effect).

NFHS; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, they were playing shorthanded (4-3-1g and 3-3-8d). Unless you (umpire) invoked the blood rule, that player is no longer eligible to play, and her batting later was an illegal substitute. The penalty for an illegal sub is disqualification, etc. (depending on when discovered; read rule 3-4 in its entirety). Most states would likely grant an administrative protest for using an ineligible player and grant a forfeit to the offended team.

In NCAA, the game was over immediately. In ASA and NFHS, you should have stopped the batter from illegally participating.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 01:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northridge CA
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Rules set is important to this response; in every case, the result is a forfeit, just different when (and if you had the opportunity be proactive and save the forfeit).

NCAA; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, game ended in a forfeit.

ASA; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, they were playing shorthanded. Unless you (umpire) invoked the blood rule, that player is no longer eligible to play (4.1-D(2)f), and her batting later was an illegal player. The penalty for her illegal re-entry is forfeit (4.8-A Effect).

NFHS; when they didn't field 9 defensive players, they were playing shorthanded (4-3-1g and 3-3-8d). Unless you (umpire) invoked the blood rule, that player is no longer eligible to play, and her batting later was an illegal substitute. The penalty for an illegal sub is disqualification, etc. (depending on when discovered; read rule 3-4 in its entirety). Most states would likely grant an administrative protest for using an ineligible player and grant a forfeit to the offended team.

In NCAA, the game was over immediately. In ASA and NFHS, you should have stopped the batter from illegally participating.
NCAA it is a forfeit under rule 8.1.1.

For ASA and NFHS, Both rule sets defined a shorthanded situation as a team that cannot provide the required number of players in the batting order. There is no reference to fielding. Therefore, I would not invoke the shorthanded rule until such time as the player misses a turn at bat. (ASA - 4.1.d.2.a; NFHS - 4-3-1-g)

Also to be clear that the penalty for an illegal player uner ASA is a disqualification of the player under rule 4.6.E - Effect)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 02:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Team has 9 players to start the game. Player gets hurt as BR when she is called out. She does not play on defense for 2 innings. When her next time at bat comes up, she bats. Since the team only had 9 players, she was never replaced by a substitute and the team played defense with 8 players.

Question: Did she officially leave the game when she got hurt and re-entered to bat, or was she still officially in the game even though she did not play defense? Remember, she never missed a time at bat.
Was there a substitute available?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 02:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGKBLUE View Post
...Therefore, I would not invoke the shorthanded rule until such time as the player misses a turn at bat. (ASA - 4.1.d.2.a; NFHS - 4-3-1-g)...
I disagree. 4-1-d-2-d refers to "if" the player is a runner or batter... leaving the possiblity of them NOT being a runner or batter (e,g, a fielder). Reference to the batting order is for count purposes (when do you go shorthanded) and for charging the out (... 2-e), which, BTW, also implies they may have been playing shorthanded for some time before the player is due to bat.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 02:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by strike4 View Post
Team has 9 players to start the game. Player gets hurt as BR when she is called out. She does not play on defense for 2 innings. When her next time at bat comes up, she bats. Since the team only had 9 players, she was never replaced by a substitute and the team played defense with 8 players.

Question: Did she officially leave the game when she got hurt and re-entered to bat, or was she still officially in the game even though she did not play defense? Remember, she never missed a time at bat.
I got to learn this rule first hand at a Women's ASA FP National. Exact scenario you cited happened at my game. Player got overheated and left game, no subs available. About two innings later she came back and I allowed it. Found out after the game, from the UIC, that I shouldn't have allowed it (made no difference in the game as the shorthanded team was getting it handed to them anyway, and opposing team was happy she came back). Once they took field and played without her, she had left the game. Rules do not permit her to come back.

Personally, I don't understand why the player isn't allowed to come back. I'm sure the rule serves to protect some advantage but don't see what it is.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 03:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGKBLUE View Post
For ASA and NFHS, Both rule sets defined a shorthanded situation as a team that cannot provide the required number of players in the batting order. There is no reference to fielding. Therefore, I would not invoke the shorthanded rule until such time as the player misses a turn at bat. (ASA - 4.1.d.2.a; NFHS - 4-3-1-g)
What about all the defense being required to be in fair ground, exc. F2?

What does "invoke the shorthanded rule " imply other than when a team is at bat?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 03:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dholloway1962 View Post
Personally, I don't understand why the player isn't allowed to come back. I'm sure the rule serves to protect some advantage but don't see what it is.
Remember the alternative prior to the shorthanded rule. The idea of the rule was to avoid forfeits. The team is already being given a break by being allowed to continue play as opposed to packing their bags.

Since a team can start or continue play with less than the "required" number of players without qualifying a cause, I guess there could be an abuse of the rule.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 03:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dholloway1962 View Post
Personally, I don't understand why the player isn't allowed to come back. I'm sure the rule serves to protect some advantage but don't see what it is.
Simple. Goes like this...

"Oh coach, I'm not batting so well today."

"No problem, Mary. Fake an injury and we'll go shorthanded. After your batting spot is skipped, we'll put you back on defense in this tight game."

"Thanks, coach! You're swell!"

Okay, cheesy, I know. But don't think for a moment that a coach wouldn't pull that if given the option.
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 04:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
Simple. Goes like this...

"Oh coach, I'm not batting so well today."

"No problem, Mary. Fake an injury and we'll go shorthanded. After your batting spot is skipped, we'll put you back on defense in this tight game."

"Thanks, coach! You're swell!"

Okay, cheesy, I know. But don't think for a moment that a coach wouldn't pull that if given the option.
But that would result in an out. The advantage to not playing defense is the question.
________
Web shows

Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 06:45pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 04:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Assume runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out. B9 due up, tends to GIDP. B1 follows who has a 500 OBP and a 400 BA. Coaches play the odds. But, it would be simpler to just give B9 the "take" sign on every pitch...
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 05:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
But that would result in an out. The advantage to not playing defense is the question.
How's this for a philosophy?

If she isn't physically capable to stand in one spot on defense, she probably shouldn't be batting and running the bases, either.

Or,

You can't have a DP without the FLEX.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 02, 2009, 05:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
Simple. Goes like this...

"Oh coach, I'm not batting so well today."

"No problem, Mary. Fake an injury and we'll go shorthanded. After your batting spot is skipped, we'll put you back on defense in this tight game."

"Thanks, coach! You're swell!"

Okay, cheesy, I know. But don't think for a moment that a coach wouldn't pull that if given the option.
"Oh, coach, it's so hot. And, if I have to field a ball, I might break a nail."

"Mary, we would forfeit if you don't play. I know you like to hit, so how about if we just say you are injured, and you can hit so we don't forfeit." Meanwhile, Coach is thinking "She isn't any help on defense, anyway; always thinking she might break a nail if she actually had to field the ball."
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When officially is the ball ready for play? cos_man99 Football 20 Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:36pm
Two Runners Leave Early Carl Cramer Baseball 7 Tue Apr 24, 2007 04:12am
Why didn't the AZ player leave? Nevadaref Basketball 0 Fri Nov 26, 2004 09:29am
Officially an Official (Almost) WeekendRef Basketball 4 Thu Nov 11, 2004 08:12pm
Directing Player to Leave Game vawils Basketball 20 Tue Jan 20, 2004 02:20pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1