What's the Call

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In the OP, the appeal came after the tag out. While not stated very clearly, the tag was apparently just a tag, not a live ball appeal.

Get new glasses and take the events in order offered

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Get new glasses and take the events in order offered

OK, but I guess I need something besides new glasses...

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

(1)R1 misses 3B enroute to the plate,
(2)but realizes he will be put out
(3)and reverses direction.
(4)While attempting to return to 3B, R1 is obstructed
(5)and tagged out by F5.
(6)Defense immediately appeals the runner missing 3B.

What in there implies the tag was a live ball appeal?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, but I guess I need something besides new glasses...
What in there implies the tag was a live ball appeal?

It doesn't and never meant to insinuate a live ball appeal. You are reading into it.

The status of the appeal is actually determined by the actions of defense and the manner in which the umpire addresses the play

[pollywolly60]

On proper appeal of runner missing 3rd base, the runner is out.

( see RS 36 )

[RKBUmp]

If the umpire had indicated the delayed dead ball, immediately upon the tag it should be a dead ball situation and the runner who was obstructed awarded any base the umpire deemed they would have reached. In this case, he was headed back to 3rd when obstructed, so I would have awarded 3rd. I would not have recognized any appeal by the defense until the base had been awarded, and in this case the runner was returned to third, negating the missed base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It doesn't and never meant to insinuate a live ball appeal. You are reading into it.

The status of the appeal is actually determined by the actions of defense and the manner in which the umpire addresses the play

I never said it was a live ball appeal; I said it apparently was not, but the situation as stated left room for some doubt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I never said it was a live ball appeal; I said it apparently was not,

Then why did you post this? You are the only one to mention it.

What in there implies the tag was a ball appeal? [/quote]

but the situation as stated left room for some doubt.

I don't think so.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't think so.

Whatever, man. A tag can be a live ball appeal, and is not normally verbalized. My assumption was you were describing a dead ball appeal, but the "immediately" left room for doubt that the defense was explaining the tag. I only stated the doubt since you have been known to post trick questions before.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Whatever, man. A tag can be a live ball appeal, and is not normally verbalized. My assumption was you were describing a dead ball appeal, but the "immediately" left room for doubt that the defense was explaining the tag. I only stated the doubt since you have been known to post trick questions before.

Let's change the OP to make it a live ball appeal, tagging the obstructed runner. Would you treat the result differently?

RS 36 says (in part), relative to an obstructed runner being played on for a running violation, " If the runner would not have made it back ... prior to the throw arriving, the runner remains out." So, it appears the "exceptions" aren't intended to be applied in every case, but we are to judge if the result of the obstruction kept the obstructed runner from correcting the violation, and rule in a manner consistent with other obstructions, that we award what we judge would be the result had there been no obstruction.

In this altered play, the runner is obstructed trying to return, and tagged out on a live ball appeal. While perhaps not an absolute, my conclusion would be that the obstruction without the ball means the same player later tagging her kept her from safely returning, and I am still awarding her 3rd. The mechanic is that I am signalling (calling) DDB when the obstruction is observed, and DB when the tag is applied, no matter if it a live ball appeal OR a simple tag attempt. I am awarding the runner 3rd, and once she has completed her running responsibilities (and is standing on 3rd), any subsequent dead ball can then be considered (and would be denied).

As explained to me, the general scenario intended by the exceptions is to not completely protect a runner who is obstructed when advancing, and still put out when realizing she needed to return for a missed base, or one left early. In some cases, the obstruction even helped the runner's opportunity to return (she had less distance to cover in return), so the decision should still be based on what the calling umpire judges would have happened if there were no obstruction. If the obstruction didn't affect the result, keep the out; if the runner would have safely returned, then keep the protection.