Home Plate Tag - Safe

[ukumpire]

Play - (all rather easy until...) Runner from 3rd comes into home whilst the catcher is receiving/in position with the ball all under control. Runner makes a perfectly good slide into home plate and gets tagged within an inch or 2 of the hp.
I take my usual second, or 2, before throwing an out, only to see that the slide of the runner into hp has removed the mitt with the ball inside from the catcher's hand.
With the whole movement still ongoing the runner slides across hp.
{when the mitt came off the catcher, she picks up the mitt with the ball still inside the web, which is lying right in front of her, and holds it in the air}

My Call - Safe, based on the 'lost control ruling'
The head coach calls time and discusses the play, insisting that when the tag was made, control was kept (I silently agree!) it was only when the catcher pulled her arm away after making the tag that the mitt came off the hand (I agree)
But then I let him know, that in my judgement and opionion, the movement of pulling the arm away is still part of the tag phrase and by losing the mitt control was not kept for the whole process of the tag!

If any of you are interested in the next part then all good & well:
Mike Candrea and Jessica Mendoza was watching the game and Mike is of the opinion that it should be ruled an Out!!

Look forward to your views on this rather unusual play!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ukumpire

Play - (all rather easy until...) Runner from 3rd comes into home whilst the catcher is receiving/in position with the ball all under control. Runner makes a perfectly good slide into home plate and gets tagged within an inch or 2 of the hp.
I take my usual second, or 2, before throwing an out, only to see that the slide of the runner into hp has removed the mitt with the ball inside from the catcher's hand.
With the whole movement still ongoing the runner slides across hp.
{when the mitt came off the catcher, she picks up the mitt with the ball still inside the web, which is lying right in front of her, and holds it in the air}

My Call - Safe, based on the 'lost control ruling'
The head coach calls time and discusses the play, insisting that when the tag was made, control was kept (I silently agree!) it was only when the catcher pulled her arm away after making the tag that the mitt came off the hand (I agree)
But then I let him know, that in my judgement and opionion, the movement of pulling the arm away is still part of the tag phrase and by losing the mitt control was not kept for the whole process of the tag!

Speaking ASA.

Spencer, we beat this to death sometime in the past year. Some still disagree, but the basic rule which I believe is supported by ASA's case book, is that if you (umpire) judge that the player controlled the ball at the time of the tag and then lost possession during subsequent play, the player should be ruled out. If during the application of the tag, the player loses control of the ball, then the runner has not been put out.

Many want to argue that it was not a voluntary release, so it cannot be an out. However, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement in establishing a tag.

Granted, this is a judgment call, but the standard you set for a tag is not the same as the ASA rule book. ISF did (and may still) have the wording that the player must maintain control immediately after the tagging action. Now the question is, define immediately. Is it a nanosecond, 2 seconds, 10 seconds, 2 minutes, etc.

If I could tell the catcher did not lose the ball until after establishing a tag, which in ASA only requires the ball to be securely held in the hand or glove while applying the tag, I would have ruled the runner out.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA.

Spencer, we beat this to death sometime in the past year. Some still disagree, but the basic rule which I believe is supported by ASA's case book, is that if you (umpire) judge that the player controlled the ball at the time of the tag and then lost possession during subsequent play, the player should be ruled out. If during the application of the tag, the player loses control of the ball, then the runner has not been put out.

Many want to argue that it was not a voluntary release, so it cannot be an out. However, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement in establishing a tag.

Granted, this is a judgment call, but the standard you set for a tag is not the same as the ASA rule book. ISF did (and may still) have the wording that the player must maintain control immediately after the tagging action. Now the question is, define immediately. Is it a nanosecond, 2 seconds, 10 seconds, 2 minutes, etc.

If I could tell the catcher did not lose the ball until after establishing a tag, which in ASA only requires the ball to be securely held in the hand or glove while applying the tag, I would have ruled the runner out.

What whitey said..... out!

[CajunNewBlue]

I agree with the others... out. in the OP, to me the description of the pulling the hand away from the tag is a secondary movement and not part of the tag.
ie: had almost the same thing (except glove stayed on) when I asked her to show me the ball (tag was under the leg/buttocks area) the runner jerked/ spasmed (we know what she was doing...she was knocking the ball loose) ...lol and in my judgment caused the ball to fall out of the glove during the "show".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

What whitey said..... out!

You called me what?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

What whitey said..... out!

Originally Posted by irishmafia

You called me what?

There's a story here that we're not getting....

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Andy

There's a story here that we're not getting....

Not real sure we want to, either.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

There's a story here that we're not getting....

Andy, don't start trouble. I know you saw the big grin.

It is a joke, funny ha ha. Actually, more sarcasm toward those who get so spastic about an innocent annotation.

We both know Darrell and no one in their right mind would intentionally anger him (especially since he can recognize me ). Then again, I'm sure there are plenty who don't think I'm in my right mind.....or my left mind, but that's another story.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

... We both know Darrell and no one in their right mind would intentionally anger him ...

Than I can imagine that Darrel has the about the same size as Spencer. Spence and I were in Bulgaria 3 weeks ago. I know I don't want to (intentionally or not) anger him!!!

@Spencer: Have you seen Jack lately? Next time we meet, we can drink again to his health!!!

[ukumpire]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

Than I can imagine that Darrel has the about the same size as Spencer. Spence and I were in Bulgaria 3 weeks ago. I know I don't want to (intentionally or not) anger him!!!

@Spencer: Have you seen Jack lately? Next time we meet, we can drink again to his health!!!

It's almost the end of Jack's birthday and we are still together!!

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by ukumpire

It's almost the end of Jack's birthday and we are still together!!

Help me remember that the next time we're assigned together I'll bring Jack and his buddy D. along...

[wadeintothem]

This sounds like an out to me, especially with your "silent agreements".

And I stood on the "safe" side the aforementioned beat to death of this issue.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...We both know Darrell and no one in their right mind would intentionally anger him (especially since he can recognize me )....

You're right about that....if you can believe this, I'm actually a bit taller and heavier than Darrell.....maybe even a bit uglier.....

He and I went out on the field to do a 14u or 16u game together a few years ago - one of the coaches walks over to us, looks up and says....

"Wow, are you guys expecting trouble on this game????"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

You're right about that....if you can believe this, I'm actually a bit taller and heavier than Darrell.....maybe even a bit uglier.....

He and I went out on the field to do a 14u or 16u game together a few years ago - one of the coaches walks over to us, looks up and says....

"Wow, are you guys expecting trouble on this game????"

Hopefully, you smiled and responded, "Not any more!"