foul tip or foul ball

[shipwreck]

I seem to remember this discussion a while ago but don't remember the answer. We had this happen today in a HS Federation game. 2 strikes and the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt and then her chest protector. She then grabs the ball with her bare hand and secures it against the CP. The rule book says it is a foul tip if the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt or bare hand and is secured by the catcher. It doesn't mention what happens if it happens in the order that I describe. It seems to me both requirements for a foul tip have been met but am not sure if when it hit the CP if that made it a foul ball or not. I cannot find an exact play like this in the case book. Any help would be appreciated. Dave

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I seem to remember this discussion a while ago but don't remember the answer. We had this happen today in a HS Federation game. 2 strikes and the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt and then her chest protector. She then grabs the ball with her bare hand and secures it against the CP. The rule book says it is a foul tip if the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt or bare hand and is secured by the catcher. It doesn't mention what happens if it happens in the order that I describe. It seems to me both requirements for a foul tip have been met but am not sure if when it hit the CP if that made it a foul ball or not. I cannot find an exact play like this in the case book. Any help would be appreciated. Dave

This would be a foul tip, with the possible issue that this may not be a legal catch. I've underlined the problem phrase (for me) in your description.

The rule book says "caught by the catcher", not "secured". Trapping the ball against the catcher's equipment is not a legal catch. If the catcher made a legal catch, you have a foul tip. If not, a foul ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This would be a foul tip, with the possible issue that this may not be a legal catch. I've underlined the problem phrase (for me) in your description.

The rule book says "caught by the catcher", not "secured". Trapping the ball against the catcher's equipment is not a legal catch. If the catcher made a legal catch, you have a foul tip. If not, a foul ball.

Unless this ball drops to the ground, is it not "caught" the moment the catcher securely holds the ball in his/her hand?

[shipwreck]

At some time the catcher must have the ball in her bare hand in order to get it back to the pitcher or roll the ball to pitcher's circle. I thought if it hadn't touched the ground at this point, it would be a foul tip. My PU partner simply called it a foul ball. I said I was pretty sure it was a foul tip, but since I wasn't 100% sure, we left it at a foul ball. I think we got it wrong. Dave

[7in60]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

At some time the catcher must have the ball in her bare hand in order to get it back to the pitcher or roll the ball to pitcher's circle. I thought if it hadn't touched the ground at this point, it would be a foul tip. My PU partner simply called it a foul ball. I said I was pretty sure it was a foul tip, but since I wasn't 100% sure, we left it at a foul ball. I think we got it wrong. Dave

You got it right. If the ball goes directly to her glove but isn't caught at that moment, it's just a foul ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Unless this ball drops to the ground, is it not "caught" the moment the catcher securely holds the ball in his/her hand?

Yes, and it probably was a catch, but "securely hold the ball in her hand" was not what he said. He said she secured it against the chest protector.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by 7in60

You got it right. If the ball goes directly to her glove but isn't caught at that moment, it's just a foul ball.

That is not correct. It doesn't need to be caught "at that moment." It just needs to be caught by the catcher.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by Dakota

That is not correct. It doesn't need to be caught "at that moment." It just needs to be caught by the catcher.

It needs to be direct to mitt or hand. It needs to be caught "clean". Anything else is a foul ball.

This is a foul ball since the ball did not go directly to either the mitt or hand.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by snorman75

It needs to be direct to mitt or hand. It needs to be caught "clean". Anything else is a foul ball.

This is a foul ball since the ball did not go directly to either the mitt or hand.

It didn't?

Originally Posted by shipwreck

...the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt...

You have a significant misunderstanding of the foul tip rule. The batted ball DOES need to go directly back and first contact the catcher's hand or glove, but after it does that, the ball does NOT need to be caught "clean" - it merely needs to be legally caught by the catcher.

[cruzercapt]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You have a significant misunderstanding of the foul tip rule. The batted ball DOES need to go directly back and first contact the catcher's hand or glove...

True,

but after it does that, the ball does NOT need to be caught "clean" - it merely needs to be legally caught by the catcher.

Not true. The legal catch must occur before the ball contacts anything else, including the chest protector, mask, umpire, etc.

Additionally, a ball trapped against the chest protector is not legally caught.

David

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by cruzercapt

True,



Not true. The legal catch must occur before the ball contacts anything else, including the chest protector, mask, umpire, etc.

Additionally, a ball trapped against the chest protector is not legally caught.

David

Try reading the FED rule.

Bob

[cruzercapt]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Try reading the FED rule.

Bob

I take it that there is a difference between FED and the rest of the softball world?

Can somebody please post the rule reference/quote?

Thanks

David

[snorman75]

It is a foul tip. The reason why is the word "and" in the rule, not "then".

To be a foul tip it says the ball need to be directly to the mitt or hand and legally caught. Once the ball does anything but go directly to the mitt or hand the first part rule is no longer fulfilled and we have a foul ball.

P.S. using ASA, sorry no FED book.

[Dakota]

From NFHS Case Book:

2.25 COMMENT: Determining when a ball becomes dead on a foul is sometimes tricky....(4) A pitch touches the bat of
B2. In (a), it goes directly to the catcher's glove then caroms against her protector and rebounds into her hand or glove; or (b) it goes directly to catcher's protector or mask and rebounds into her hand or glove. In (a), it is a foul tip and a catch. The ball remains live. In (b), the ball becomes dead when it touches the body of F2.

From the ASA Case Book:

PLAY 1-59
The ball goes directly from the bat and (a) first touches F2’s glove or hand and then rebounds to the chest protector, or (b) strikes F2’s body, protective equipment or the umpire. In both cases, the ball rebounds into the glove or hand of F2 and is securely held.
RULING: In (a) a foul tip and a strike is ruled. In (b) it is a foul ball. The ball cannot be a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher’s glove or hand. (1-FOUL BALL-G; 1-FOUL TIP; 7-4D)

As I said, you (two) have a significant misunderstanding of the foul tip rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Yes, and it probably was a catch, but "securely hold the ball in her hand" was not what he said. He said she secured it against the chest protector.

That is true, but how was the ball released? As previously noted. unless the ball is just allowed to drop to the ground from the trapped position or fumbled and dropped, it must have been held securely in the hand at some point prior to the release of the ball by the catcher.