foul tip / foul ball

Buckeye12 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 02:36pm

I was wondering what the exact criteria is to denote a foul tip from a foul ball. The instance I'm particularly interested in is when the batter fouls a ball behind the catcher. Is there a certain height that the ball must reach in order for the catcher to catch it for an out.

I know that a foul tip goes directly from the batters bat to the catchers glove. This still applies if the ball hits the bat, glances off the catchers glove hits the catchers mask, goes in the air and is then caught. What happens if the ball would come off the bat, hit the catchers mask, go straight up and then caught. Is this an out. I hope this isn't too confusing.

So in summary, I'm looking for information on how to call a foul ball from a foul tip.

Tim C · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 02:41pm

For years no one explained this to me very well.

My example came on a bunt . . . the batter dipped the bat head near the ground, the ball glanced off the bat, went about 4" above the bat where F2 dove forward and caught the ball.

The ONLY reference I had was the old "foul tip" reference of "speedily and direct" so I knew it wasn't a "Foul Tip" so that left "OUT!" as my only choice.

(I remember as a kid everyone always screaming, "it didn't go above his head he can't be out!")

So my reference is one from experience - "speedily and direct" make it a foul tip.

Good Question.

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 03:02pm

On that bunt that went 4" above the bat, if F2 dove forward and caught it fair, it would be an out. Foul, it would be a foul tip. What the kids said about the foul ball having to be over the batter's head was correct.

BLUE69450 · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 03:08pm

TIM IS RIGHT ABOUT THE FOUL TIP DEFINITION. FED RULE 5-D-2 STATES THAT A BALL IS FOUL IF IT " GOES DIRECTLY FROM THE BAT TO THE CATCHER'S PROTECTOR, MASK, OR PERSON WITHOUT FIRST TOUCHING THE CATCHER'S GLOVE OR HAND." OBR MAKES THE SAME STATEMENT UNDER THE DEFINITION OF A FOUL TIP, " IT IS NOT A CATCH IF IT IS A REBOUND, UNLESS THE BALL HAS FIRST TOUCHED THE CATCHER'S GLOVE OR HAND. "

Jim Porter · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
On that bunt that went 4" above the bat, if F2 dove forward and caught it fair, it would be an out. Foul, it would be a foul tip. What the kids said about the foul ball having to be over the batter's head was correct.

Well, now, that's not correct. Perhaps in some softball rules, but not in baseball. In baseball, "sharp and direct," is a judgment call. The batter's head means absolutely nothing.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 04:26pm

You're right, Jim. "Over the head" is not in the baseball book, only softball. In fact, a batter could swing at a ball over his head and foul tip it, the catcher standing up and catching it 7' above the ground. We wouldn't call that an out.

However, in the standard case of a regular pitch that goes up off the bat, I've always used the "over the head" criterion and never had a problem (of course, that doesn't mean it's right). And anything fair cannot be a foul tip, obviously.

But philosophically, is it still a foul tip if it is slowed perceptibly by the bat? If it spins off to the side or slightly up? Can a bunt that spins up 4" and hits the catcher in the mask still be caught for an out? If it is slowed quite perceptibly but doesn't rise at all and simply falls into the catcher's mitt?

bob jenkins · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 04, 2002, 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
However, in the standard case of a regular pitch that goes up off the bat, I've always used the "over the head" criterion and never had a problem (of course, that doesn't mean it's right). And anything fair cannot be a foul tip, obviously.

Aad, many have called a pitched ball that hits the hads a foul ball, because the hands are part of the bat, and never had a problem. That doesn't make it right (but it might make it the proper interpretation for that local league).

Quote:

But philosophically, is it still a foul tip if it is slowed perceptibly by the bat? If it spins off to the side or slightly up? Can a bunt that spins up 4" and hits the catcher in the mask still be caught for an out? If it is slowed quite perceptibly but doesn't rise at all and simply falls into the catcher's mitt?

In most instances (all but two that I know of) a "foul tip" is the same as a "swing and a miss". It's treated that way because it happens so fast and becuase the catcher can't really react to it.

If the ball reacts differently than a "swing and a miss" I'd treat it as not a foul tip -- an out in your examples.

Jim Porter · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 06, 2002, 11:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
But philosophically, is it still a foul tip if it is slowed perceptibly by the bat?

Well, of course it isn't. If it is slowed perceptibly then it cannot possibly be sharp and direct.

bluezebra · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 07, 2002, 01:39am

"What happens if the ball would come off the bat, hit the catchers mask, go straight up and then caught. Is this an out. I hope this isn't too confusing."

Since it hit the mask first, it cannot be a foul tip.

Bob

GarthB · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 07, 2002, 01:42am

Tonight's game, AAA Legion. 2-0 count, batter squares to bunt and goes for low pitch around mid calf. Ball come off bat and "pops up" and to the right of the first base line at about arm pit level. Catcher dives for ball and catches it cleanly just before it hits the ground. OUT! sez I.

Coach asks: Did that travel high enough for a pop fly, ump?

Yep.

End of discussion.