foul tip or foul ball

[shipwreck]

I seem to remember this discussion a while ago but don't remember the answer. We had this happen today in a HS Federation game. 2 strikes and the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt and then her chest protector. She then grabs the ball with her bare hand and secures it against the CP. The rule book says it is a foul tip if the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt or bare hand and is secured by the catcher. It doesn't mention what happens if it happens in the order that I describe. It seems to me both requirements for a foul tip have been met but am not sure if when it hit the CP if that made it a foul ball or not. I cannot find an exact play like this in the case book. Any help would be appreciated. Dave

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I seem to remember this discussion a while ago but don't remember the answer. We had this happen today in a HS Federation game. 2 strikes and the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt and then her chest protector. She then grabs the ball with her bare hand and secures it against the CP. The rule book says it is a foul tip if the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt or bare hand and is secured by the catcher. It doesn't mention what happens if it happens in the order that I describe. It seems to me both requirements for a foul tip have been met but am not sure if when it hit the CP if that made it a foul ball or not. I cannot find an exact play like this in the case book. Any help would be appreciated. Dave

This would be a foul tip, with the possible issue that this may not be a legal catch. I've underlined the problem phrase (for me) in your description.

The rule book says "caught by the catcher", not "secured". Trapping the ball against the catcher's equipment is not a legal catch. If the catcher made a legal catch, you have a foul tip. If not, a foul ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This would be a foul tip, with the possible issue that this may not be a legal catch. I've underlined the problem phrase (for me) in your description.

The rule book says "caught by the catcher", not "secured". Trapping the ball against the catcher's equipment is not a legal catch. If the catcher made a legal catch, you have a foul tip. If not, a foul ball.

Unless this ball drops to the ground, is it not "caught" the moment the catcher securely holds the ball in his/her hand?

[shipwreck]

At some time the catcher must have the ball in her bare hand in order to get it back to the pitcher or roll the ball to pitcher's circle. I thought if it hadn't touched the ground at this point, it would be a foul tip. My PU partner simply called it a foul ball. I said I was pretty sure it was a foul tip, but since I wasn't 100% sure, we left it at a foul ball. I think we got it wrong. Dave

[7in60]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

At some time the catcher must have the ball in her bare hand in order to get it back to the pitcher or roll the ball to pitcher's circle. I thought if it hadn't touched the ground at this point, it would be a foul tip. My PU partner simply called it a foul ball. I said I was pretty sure it was a foul tip, but since I wasn't 100% sure, we left it at a foul ball. I think we got it wrong. Dave

You got it right. If the ball goes directly to her glove but isn't caught at that moment, it's just a foul ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by 7in60

You got it right. If the ball goes directly to her glove but isn't caught at that moment, it's just a foul ball.

That is not correct. It doesn't need to be caught "at that moment." It just needs to be caught by the catcher.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Unless this ball drops to the ground, is it not "caught" the moment the catcher securely holds the ball in his/her hand?

Yes, and it probably was a catch, but "securely hold the ball in her hand" was not what he said. He said she secured it against the chest protector.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Yes, and it probably was a catch, but "securely hold the ball in her hand" was not what he said. He said she secured it against the chest protector.

That is true, but how was the ball released? As previously noted. unless the ball is just allowed to drop to the ground from the trapped position or fumbled and dropped, it must have been held securely in the hand at some point prior to the release of the ball by the catcher.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is true, but how was the ball released? As previously noted. unless the ball is just allowed to drop to the ground from the trapped position or fumbled and dropped, it must have been held securely in the hand at some point prior to the release of the ball by the catcher.

Agreed....that piece of the puzzle is missing.

[shipwreck]

I was correct on the field when I said it was a foul tip, but like I said, wasn't 100% sure at the time so didn't push the issue. Now with the help from some of you, I can see it was a foul tip, no doubt. It surely was a protestable ruling. I am glad it happened in a relative blowout, with the coach oblivious to the correct ruling. It was a good learning experience. Dave

[greymule]

A few months ago, we discussed the following play in ASA:

Ball goes sharp and direct off the bat, hits the catcher's hand, ricochets to her shoulder, and gets trapped behind the chest protector. Since in ASA a ball trapped in a defensive player's equipment is in play, if the catcher reaches in and secures the ball in her hand, this is a foul tip, regardless of how long it took her to secure the ball.

However, if the ball falls out onto the ground, or if the pitcher reaches in and pulls it out, it's just a foul ball.

I'm not sure whether Fed would consider that a foul tip (i.e., whether a ball trapped in a defensive player's equipment is in play—in NCAA, it's just a foul ball).

I'm also not sure whether in Fed a player other than the catcher can catch a foul tip. In ASA, it must be the catcher.

[shipwreck]

greymule, in Federation all action has to be by the catcher. If another fielder touches the ball it is just like it touched the ground. So you say NCAA has a different rule? Dave

[greymule]

So you say NCAA has a different rule?

NCAA is different from ASA as regards a ball trapped/lodged in a defensive player's equipment. In ASA, the ball is live; not so in NCAA. I don't know Fed's rule on this, though I seem to remember that in Fed baseball, it's a dead ball.

If as you say only the catcher in Fed can catch a foul tip, then Fed is in line with NCAA and ASA.

There's some code under which any defensive player can catch a foul tip. Maybe that's Fed baseball.