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[IRISHMAFIA]

We beat this to death three years ago.


Control (out) or not?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

We beat this to death three years ago.


Control (out) or not?

wow, you were way worser wrong on that call than this one. This one I could at least see either way.

You dont make that call.

This is yet another thread I would never recommend for a new umpire.

Dont go looking to call this out on a field with actual ball players on there.

Great message board fodder though.

[robbie]

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

No one on this board can tell you unless they were there. Speaking ASA, if you judged F3 had control of the ball while contacting the base, out is an appropriate call. Obviously, from your call, you judged F3 did not get control of the ball.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by robbie

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

I say work on your timing so you dont do an out/safe when the ball falls on the ground.

Dont even let it creep into your mind that Irish is right on this and go on a real life ball field and call a girl out with the ball on the ground. He's goofing around for teaching purposes. He doesnt make this call. He would have been scourged and drawn and quartered with all the mens ball he has done.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Point taken, but there is a difference. Each of those organizations have their own rules set.

In baseball, it's more like a free-for-all where in many cases, entire sects of umpires from the same association or "camp" cannot come to agreement on whether the sun is shining or not.

True, but that's why theirs is great theoretical discussion

As wade says, there's a big element of 'expected call' that you can't get from the rulebook on this, it's a lot more clear in live action than trying to type a sitch on a forum.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Dont even let it creep into your mind that Irish is right on this and go on a real life ball field and call a girl out with the ball on the ground. He's goofing around for teaching purposes. He doesnt make this call. He would have been scourged and drawn and quartered with all the mens ball he has done.

Don't believe that for a second. If I judge the fielder had control of the ball after a tag, I'm calling the out. I'm not going looking for trouble, but I certainly am not going to back off a valid call because of perception.

The problem that there are umpires that believe a ball on the ground means the runner cannot be out is just as ridiculous as those who believe a runner cannot be called out if the tag is high on the player's body.

It all depends on how and when the ball got on the ground, just as the outcome of a high tag relies upon whether it occured before or after the runner contacts (and maintains contact with) the base.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't believe that for a second. If I judge the fielder had control of the ball after a tag, I'm calling the out. I'm not going looking for trouble, but I certainly am not going to back off a valid call because of perception.

The problem that there are umpires that believe a ball on the ground means the runner cannot be out is just as ridiculous as those who believe a runner cannot be called out if the tag is high on the player's body.

It all depends on how and when the ball got on the ground, just as the outcome of a high tag relies upon whether it occured before or after the runner contacts (and maintains contact with) the base.

For the first time in a long time I find myself in agreement with you

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

There is no such requirement. To begin the voluntary release is one of the options to help umpires determine a catch. Rule 1.Catch Problem is that the scenario has absolutely nothing to do with a catch.

Since there was no question presented of the fielder's possession of the ball before the tag or after a tag, the runner should be out.

Pheeww! I was beginning to think no one would straighten this out.

The OP clearly separates the tag from the fall and that the ball being dropped was from the fall, not the tag. Fielders never keep the ball for a souvenir after a tag, unless it's the last out of the championship.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by LMan

True, I haven't found any disagreement on this issue amongst softball umpires.

But, so noted.

Besides, baseball+ interesting = oxymoron.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

Because, the OP stated that F6 had control all the way through the tag, then fell over the runner. In your sit, you see F2 with control as the runner arrives, but you're not sure she maintained it through the tag because of all the dust you're waiting to settle. The OP appeared sure that the ball was still in the glove immediately following the tag.

But... I've got one for you. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits squib to F1, who eventually picks it up and throws it home. The F2 catches the ball and immediately tries to tag R1 (DMC, but it was 10U) who is arriving at the plate and the ball comes loose. Ball got there first, but the tag attempt was immediate, so I couldn't be 100% sure of control. Give them the force or not?

Operative words being "couldn't be 100% sure of control", so an out would be a guess.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

the runner cannot be out is just as ridiculous as those who believe a runner cannot be called out if the tag is high on the player's body.

It all depends on how and when the ball got on the ground, just as the outcome of a high tag relies upon whether it occured before or after the runner contacts (and maintains contact with) the base.

Did you see both of those this weekend?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

wow, you were way worser wrong on that call than this one. This one I could at least see either way.

You dont make that call.

This is yet another thread I would never recommend for a new umpire.

Dont go looking to call this out on a field with actual ball players on there.

Great message board fodder though.

Someone please remind me NOT to umpire in CA.

[Dakota]

Nothing more needs to be said, so of course, I'll now say something!

There are two ways of looking at these kinds of plays... the "overly precise, statement of fact web board discussion way", and the "see it in the game way".

Ideally, the call is the same, but in reality, it won't be. Simply put, in a play like the OP and the variations discussed here, it is all too clear to state for the web board facts like

...The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Such absolutes are frequently not so clear in real time.

If you are sure possession was secure at the time of the tag and that the loss of possession was not related to the tag, then call the out (and be prepared for the uproar from fans, coaches, players, etc., etc., all of them screaming "the ball's on the ground, Blue").

But, if you are not sure, the ball rolling around on the ground is all the evidence you need for the safe call.

I've never bought into the principle of making the expected call even when you know it to be incorrect (as promoted by some on the baseball board), but that is NOT the same thing as being sure of the out before you call the out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Did you see both of those this weekend?

Yes, I did, as did you.

Saw a ball on the ground, but the BU did not. The BU properly went to his partner when asked and reversed his call. On that play, it was clear, the ball was lost on contact with the runner whom executed a legal slide.

I also saw a couple of outs called on players where the runner was tagged at knee level or above (including one in my game).