Help on "tag"
 

Girl in rundown between 2nd and 3rd. F6 chases her back to 2B, F6 reaches out and tags runner as runner begins to dive back to 2B. Runner is now on the ground and F6s momentum causes her to trip over the down runner. As F6 hits the ground, the ball comes out of her glove. The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Is the tag rule like the catch rule where there has to be voluntary release, i.e., no out on this play, or is this an out if secure possession is retained through the act of applying the tag and releasing the glove from the runners body?

IMO, she must have a voluntary release of the ball, just like a catch. I remember this has been discussed before and seems there were some differences of opinion. She did not, IMO, demonstrate control of the ball in your situation.

I agree with DH - based on your description - the fielder did not have control of her body, so the tag is not completed until you see a voluntary release. If the runner is now on the base, I've got the runner as Safe.

Agreed.

There is no such requirement. To begin the voluntary release is one of the options to help umpires determine a catch. Rule 1.Catch Problem is that the scenario has absolutely nothing to do with a catch.

Since there was no question presented of the fielder's possession of the ball before the tag or after a tag, the runner should be out.

IMO, If the ball came out at the time of the tag, you have a safe call. The act of falling causing the ball to be dropped, I think she is out on the tag. Either way you most likely will have a coach to talk to.

I see your point so don't think I'm arguing with you. But my only question is that why is the requirement there for a catch and not a tag? Same principle isn't it?

I know you will make me make a case for my point so....I think demonstrating control of a tag involves the same issue, did they control the ball. If they have a voluntarily release, no doubt they had control. If they drop the ball, such as on a tag, it is impossible to know at exactly what point they began to lose possession/control. It could have been immediately when tag was applied or not.

Also, could one make the case that F6, in this scenario, actually had caught the ball, assuming a throw from another fielder, and did not have a voluntary release? Same thing if she caught the batted ball and ran the runner back?

I think I would have to see an out on this call. Rule or nuance or not.. in general drop = safe.

If I'm gonna sell a "out" on this play, and take the heat to sell "out" on a dropped ball.. there has better have been some dancing ballerina type control displayed before the trip and drop of the ball. If there is even a hint of a question of control = safe.

From the way I am reading the OP, I believe that I will have to side with Mike on this one. It sounds as if there was no question of control as the play was made, simply that she lost the ball when she fell. From what I am reading this sounds like an out.

No. How can you make a tag if you don't already have possession of the ball?

Okay, again, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement to determine a catch or control of the ball.

Why are people trying to turn this into a TWP? This is a no brainer. F6 has possession of the ball, makes a tag, F6 still has possession of the ball. At this point, the runner is out. This is undeniable. F6 then trips over retired runner, falls and loses control of the ball.

Then you would never call an out when a defender loses the ball on the transfer when trying to turn a double play?

What willis?

If I have to explain that to you......



Besides, it is, "Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

Yeah willis, splain it to me.

Splain to me how you got from someone in a situation where they apply the tag, trip and drop the ball to a fielder dropping it on the transfer.

Hey one thing you gotta love about a mens game.. they are smart enough that EVERYTHING is on the transfer... no matter what they did, they start yelling "it was on the transfer"

Is that whatchoo talkin bout?

Is the discussion not possession of the ball and executing a play for an out? Would this not be an issue involving both?

Hell, talk about no control or voluntary release......half the time the ball doesn't even see the inside of the glove.