Help on "tag"

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

Sometimes you have to separate black/white mumbo jumbo goof off stuff on a mb vs real life.

You have a slide play and that ball ends up rolling around on the ground.. you have one call..

That is called this..

"SAFE"

or in lieu of that, if you are a baseball guy you can do this

"safe safe safe" signal safe 6 times, point to the ground "its safe there its on the ground HE DROPPED IT" and signal safe a few more times for emphasis.

Regardless of what you do, you call anything else and you goofed it up imo... and the heckling you should receive.. well you will receive it, so enjoy it.. you earned it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

There is no such requirement. To begin the voluntary release is one of the options to help umpires determine a catch. Rule 1.Catch Problem is that the scenario has absolutely nothing to do with a catch.

Since there was no question presented of the fielder's possession of the ball before the tag or after a tag, the runner should be out.

Pheeww! I was beginning to think no one would straighten this out.

The OP clearly separates the tag from the fall and that the ball being dropped was from the fall, not the tag. Fielders never keep the ball for a souvenir after a tag, unless it's the last out of the championship.

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

Girl in rundown between 2nd and 3rd. F6 chases her back to 2B, F6 reaches out and tags runner as runner begins to dive back to 2B. Runner is now on the ground and F6s momentum causes her to trip over the down runner. As F6 hits the ground, the ball comes out of her glove. The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Is the tag rule like the catch rule where there has to be voluntary release, i.e., no out on this play, or is this an out if secure possession is retained through the act of applying the tag and releasing the glove from the runners body?

IMO, If the ball came out at the time of the tag, you have a safe call. The act of falling causing the ball to be dropped, I think she is out on the tag. Either way you most likely will have a coach to talk to.

[IRISHMAFIA]

We beat this to death three years ago.


Control (out) or not?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

We beat this to death three years ago.


Control (out) or not?

wow, you were way worser wrong on that call than this one. This one I could at least see either way.

You dont make that call.

This is yet another thread I would never recommend for a new umpire.

Dont go looking to call this out on a field with actual ball players on there.

Great message board fodder though.

[robbie]

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

No one on this board can tell you unless they were there. Speaking ASA, if you judged F3 had control of the ball while contacting the base, out is an appropriate call. Obviously, from your call, you judged F3 did not get control of the ball.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by robbie

Along the same lines..................
Ground ball to 1,4,5,or 6 - doesn't matter.
Throw hits F3 in leg and goes to ground and lays still in front of bag.
F3, with foot on base, picks ball up with glove palm down. Glove comes up 8-10 inches or so with ball in it.
But as glove goes up further, ball falls to ground.
I do the ever embarassing OUT - SAFE, but get no arguments and play goes on since all see the ball on the ground.
After all the discussions on this thread, and the 2005 thread, I'm wondering what ya all say???
Thanks

I say work on your timing so you dont do an out/safe when the ball falls on the ground.

Dont even let it creep into your mind that Irish is right on this and go on a real life ball field and call a girl out with the ball on the ground. He's goofing around for teaching purposes. He doesnt make this call. He would have been scourged and drawn and quartered with all the mens ball he has done.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Dont even let it creep into your mind that Irish is right on this and go on a real life ball field and call a girl out with the ball on the ground. He's goofing around for teaching purposes. He doesnt make this call. He would have been scourged and drawn and quartered with all the mens ball he has done.

Don't believe that for a second. If I judge the fielder had control of the ball after a tag, I'm calling the out. I'm not going looking for trouble, but I certainly am not going to back off a valid call because of perception.

The problem that there are umpires that believe a ball on the ground means the runner cannot be out is just as ridiculous as those who believe a runner cannot be called out if the tag is high on the player's body.

It all depends on how and when the ball got on the ground, just as the outcome of a high tag relies upon whether it occured before or after the runner contacts (and maintains contact with) the base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

wow, you were way worser wrong on that call than this one. This one I could at least see either way.

You dont make that call.

This is yet another thread I would never recommend for a new umpire.

Dont go looking to call this out on a field with actual ball players on there.

Great message board fodder though.

Someone please remind me NOT to umpire in CA.

[Dakota]

Nothing more needs to be said, so of course, I'll now say something!

There are two ways of looking at these kinds of plays... the "overly precise, statement of fact web board discussion way", and the "see it in the game way".

Ideally, the call is the same, but in reality, it won't be. Simply put, in a play like the OP and the variations discussed here, it is all too clear to state for the web board facts like

...The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Such absolutes are frequently not so clear in real time.

If you are sure possession was secure at the time of the tag and that the loss of possession was not related to the tag, then call the out (and be prepared for the uproar from fans, coaches, players, etc., etc., all of them screaming "the ball's on the ground, Blue").

But, if you are not sure, the ball rolling around on the ground is all the evidence you need for the safe call.

I've never bought into the principle of making the expected call even when you know it to be incorrect (as promoted by some on the baseball board), but that is NOT the same thing as being sure of the out before you call the out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Nothing more needs to be said,....

Guess I was wrong.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Someone please remind me NOT to umpire in CA.

We got real players out here. It pretty tough for east coasters, who's best gold teams are about equivalent to our B teams, to keep up.

I also doubt you would have a very good time out here trying to sell our 14-18U/G coaches that a drop ball was "really in possession at the time of the tag, until she dropped it, so its an out".

That may work out there.. it doesnt wash in the home of softball land.

So heres your reminder.. stay in DE.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

We got real players out here. It pretty tough for east coasters, who's best gold teams are about equivalent to our B teams, to keep up.

If you only had a clue. Do you honestly believe your BS? Do you think we are not aware of the advantages of warm-weather teams. Then again, many of the girls on the east coast actually have a life outside of softball and aren't dumb enough to chase that scholarship carrot.

I also doubt you would have a very good time out here trying to sell our 14-18U/G coaches that a drop ball was "really in possession at the time of the tag, until she dropped it, so its an out".

What's the matter, no balls for tough calls? Every year that we have had CA teams here, the coaches have always gone out of their way to thank the umpires after the tournaments.

That may work out there.. it doesnt wash in the home of softball land.

So heres your reminder.. stay in DE.

Don't have a problem with that. I've worked with some good umpires from your area and many other parts of the country. I'll take any of the umpires from this region any day, any tournament.

But I have a little problem keeping them in DE. I have umpires that are being requested to work nationals without their names even being submitted. Wonder why that is?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

We got real players out here. It pretty tough for east coasters, who's best gold teams are about equivalent to our B teams, to keep up.

Yeah, 7 of your Cal 18 Gold teams came to Auburn, AL, this past weekend, thinking the same thing. There were 6 Gold berths available; they went home with none. 5 of the 6 stayed in our Territory (the 6th went to Kansas City, MO), 2 to Georgia, 1 to Florida. Pretty much east coast.

Better stop sending those B teams east.