Help on "tag"

[LMan]

Its baseball, but this thread has some interesting discussion on this question:


http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?na...ewtopic&t=6297

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LMan

Its baseball, but this thread has some interesting discussion on this question:


http://www.umpire.org/modules.php?na...ewtopic&t=6297

Not really concerned about what baseball umpires have to think about this as they have so many sets of rules within their game, they will never agree.

[outathm]

ASA, NSA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, NAFA, ISF, ISC, USFA. Feel free to add your on initial set here.

I can see where the many rule sets of Baseball would get you down.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not really concerned about what baseball umpires have to think about this as they have so many sets of rules within their game, they will never agree.

True, I haven't found any disagreement on this issue amongst softball umpires.

But, so noted.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by outathm

ASA, NSA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, NAFA, ISF, ISC, USFA. Feel free to add your on initial set here.

I can see where the many rule sets of Baseball would get you down.

DQ'ed for padding this list. USFA has no rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

ASA, NSA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA, NAFA, ISF, ISC, USFA. Feel free to add your on initial set here.

I can see where the many rule sets of Baseball would get you down.

Point taken, but there is a difference. Each of those organizations have their own rules set.

In baseball, it's more like a free-for-all where in many cases, entire sects of umpires from the same association or "camp" cannot come to agreement on whether the sun is shining or not.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No. How can you make a tag if you don't already have possession of the ball?



Okay, again, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement to determine a catch or control of the ball.



Why are people trying to turn this into a TWP? This is a no brainer. F6 has possession of the ball, makes a tag, F6 still has possession of the ball. At this point, the runner is out. This is undeniable. F6 then trips over retired runner, falls and loses control of the ball.

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

...Why do we hesitate ...

We hesitate because the catcher had control of the ball immediately before the tag and if we see she does not have the ball in her possession immediately after the tag, then we know she must have drop it during the tag.

That, in my opinion, is a bit different than a catcher completing the tag, while still in control of the ball, and then tripping over a bat, mask or retired runner after we have seen that she did indeed maintain control of the ball during act of tagging the runner.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

Because, the OP stated that F6 had control all the way through the tag, then fell over the runner. In your sit, you see F2 with control as the runner arrives, but you're not sure she maintained it through the tag because of all the dust you're waiting to settle. The OP appeared sure that the ball was still in the glove immediately following the tag.

But... I've got one for you. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits squib to F1, who eventually picks it up and throws it home. The F2 catches the ball and immediately tries to tag R1 (DMC, but it was 10U) who is arriving at the plate and the ball comes loose. Ball got there first, but the tag attempt was immediate, so I couldn't be 100% sure of control. Give them the force or not?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

What is so hard to understand? I'm sorry, but you are looking for something that doesn't exist.

I cannot make it any simpler than I already have.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

But... I've got one for you. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits squib to F1, who eventually picks it up and throws it home. The F2 catches the ball and immediately tries to tag R1 (DMC, but it was 10U) who is arriving at the plate and the ball comes loose. Ball got there first, but the tag attempt was immediate, so I couldn't be 100% sure of control. Give them the force or not?

You're discussing a catch, not the same play or situation.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

Sometimes you have to separate black/white mumbo jumbo goof off stuff on a mb vs real life.

You have a slide play and that ball ends up rolling around on the ground.. you have one call..

That is called this..

"SAFE"

or in lieu of that, if you are a baseball guy you can do this

"safe safe safe" signal safe 6 times, point to the ground "its safe there its on the ground HE DROPPED IT" and signal safe a few more times for emphasis.

Regardless of what you do, you call anything else and you goofed it up imo... and the heckling you should receive.. well you will receive it, so enjoy it.. you earned it.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What is so hard to understand? I'm sorry, but you are looking for something that doesn't exist.

I cannot make it any simpler than I already have.

I simply believe you are wrong on this one, no disrespect intended.

Going back to the original post the momentum of the play caused the fielder to fall and the ball came out as a result of the continuation of the original play. She did not control the ball and I have a safe.

If she tagged the runner took a couple of steps, on her own, then fell I have a different outcome.

The key in the original post is that the play was fluid and the momentum caused the losing of the ball.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

Because, the OP stated that F6 had control all the way through the tag, then fell over the runner. In your sit, you see F2 with control as the runner arrives, but you're not sure she maintained it through the tag because of all the dust you're waiting to settle. The OP appeared sure that the ball was still in the glove immediately following the tag.

But... I've got one for you. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits squib to F1, who eventually picks it up and throws it home. The F2 catches the ball and immediately tries to tag R1 (DMC, but it was 10U) who is arriving at the plate and the ball comes loose. Ball got there first, but the tag attempt was immediate, so I couldn't be 100% sure of control. Give them the force or not?

uh..
NO.

She dropped the ball.
Hello!?!?

Why is this a question?

Sometimes you cant take this message board stuff to the field. Theory is great discussion, you will learn tons, some of it stays right here, never to the diamond ever.

This convo is one of them situations IMO.



Look,

You have situations where they catch the ball for the FORCE at 1B for the 3rd out and they throw the ball away so quickly as they run off the field.. it almost looks like a drop. Everyone saw it, everyone knows it.. you dont call that safe.. no tie base to the runner, no "she didnt have control"

Thats a out. Thats the call you make.

They catch the ball and are walking away and fall into a gopher hole, tripping, and dropping the ball.

That is an out. It already was an out, but now after the play, she tripped. We know its still an out. You dont change that to safe, thats out.

Some play, any play, were the end result is people in the general vicinity from both teams, a little dust, and a guy in blue thinking "damn these spandax pants are hot those big liars", and a yellow ball on the ground.

That is safe.

Thats the call you make.

You try and sell any real team or coach on "well she had possession at the time of the tag and dropped it immediately after..."

Ha! Thats a hoot.

Safe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I simply believe you are wrong on this one, no disrespect intended.

I can pretty much guarantee that my interpretation is correct. You might want to check Case Play 8.2-2 which is similar showing once the out occured, subsequent loss of the ball is irrelevant to the out.

Going back to the original post the momentum of the play caused the fielder to fall and the ball came out as a result of the continuation of the original play. She did not control the ball and I have a safe.

There is no such thing as a continuation play in ASA ball. Going back the the original post, it was clearly stated that F6 had control of the ball after the tag.

If she tagged the runner took a couple of steps, on her own, then fell I have a different outcome.

Too bad because there is no difference.

The key in the original post is that the play was fluid and the momentum caused the losing of the ball.

Aahhhh...no. The player tripping over the prone retired runner and the subsequent contact with the ground is what caused the ball to drop.