Help on "tag"

[DTQ_Blue]

Girl in rundown between 2nd and 3rd. F6 chases her back to 2B, F6 reaches out and tags runner as runner begins to dive back to 2B. Runner is now on the ground and F6s momentum causes her to trip over the down runner. As F6 hits the ground, the ball comes out of her glove. The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Is the tag rule like the catch rule where there has to be voluntary release, i.e., no out on this play, or is this an out if secure possession is retained through the act of applying the tag and releasing the glove from the runners body?

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

Girl in rundown between 2nd and 3rd. F6 chases her back to 2B, F6 reaches out and tags runner as runner begins to dive back to 2B. Runner is now on the ground and F6s momentum causes her to trip over the down runner. As F6 hits the ground, the ball comes out of her glove. The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Is the tag rule like the catch rule where there has to be voluntary release, i.e., no out on this play, or is this an out if secure possession is retained through the act of applying the tag and releasing the glove from the runners body?

IMO, she must have a voluntary release of the ball, just like a catch. I remember this has been discussed before and seems there were some differences of opinion. She did not, IMO, demonstrate control of the ball in your situation.

[Steve M]

I agree with DH - based on your description - the fielder did not have control of her body, so the tag is not completed until you see a voluntary release. If the runner is now on the base, I've got the runner as Safe.

[7in60]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I agree with DH - based on your description - the fielder did not have control of her body, so the tag is not completed until you see a voluntary release. If the runner is now on the base, I've got the runner as Safe.

Agreed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

Girl in rundown between 2nd and 3rd. F6 chases her back to 2B, F6 reaches out and tags runner as runner begins to dive back to 2B. Runner is now on the ground and F6s momentum causes her to trip over the down runner. As F6 hits the ground, the ball comes out of her glove. The ball was securely in her possession until that point.

Is the tag rule like the catch rule where there has to be voluntary release, i.e., no out on this play, or is this an out if secure possession is retained through the act of applying the tag and releasing the glove from the runners body?

There is no such requirement. To begin the voluntary release is one of the options to help umpires determine a catch. Rule 1.Catch Problem is that the scenario has absolutely nothing to do with a catch.

Since there was no question presented of the fielder's possession of the ball before the tag or after a tag, the runner should be out.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

There is no such requirement. To begin the voluntary release is one of the options to help umpires determine a catch. Rule 1.Catch Problem is that the scenario has absolutely nothing to do with a catch.

Since there was no question presented of the fielder's possession of the ball before the tag or after a tag, the runner should be out.

I see your point so don't think I'm arguing with you. But my only question is that why is the requirement there for a catch and not a tag? Same principle isn't it?

I know you will make me make a case for my point so....I think demonstrating control of a tag involves the same issue, did they control the ball. If they have a voluntarily release, no doubt they had control. If they drop the ball, such as on a tag, it is impossible to know at exactly what point they began to lose possession/control. It could have been immediately when tag was applied or not.

Also, could one make the case that F6, in this scenario, actually had caught the ball, assuming a throw from another fielder, and did not have a voluntary release? Same thing if she caught the batted ball and ran the runner back?

[wadeintothem]

I think I would have to see an out on this call. Rule or nuance or not.. in general drop = safe.

If I'm gonna sell a "out" on this play, and take the heat to sell "out" on a dropped ball.. there has better have been some dancing ballerina type control displayed before the trip and drop of the ball. If there is even a hint of a question of control = safe.

[Skahtboi]

From the way I am reading the OP, I believe that I will have to side with Mike on this one. It sounds as if there was no question of control as the play was made, simply that she lost the ball when she fell. From what I am reading this sounds like an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I think I would have to see an out on this call. Rule or nuance or not.. in general drop = safe.

If I'm gonna sell a "out" on this play, and take the heat to sell "out" on a dropped ball.. there has better have been some dancing ballerina type control displayed before the trip and drop of the ball. If there is even a hint of a question of control = safe.

Then you would never call an out when a defender loses the ball on the transfer when trying to turn a double play?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you would never call an out when a defender loses the ball on the transfer when trying to turn a double play?

What willis?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I see your point so don't think I'm arguing with you. But my only question is that why is the requirement there for a catch and not a tag? Same principle isn't it?

No. How can you make a tag if you don't already have possession of the ball?

I know you will make me make a case for my point so....I think demonstrating control of a tag involves the same issue, did they control the ball. If they have a voluntarily release, no doubt they had control. If they drop the ball, such as on a tag, it is impossible to know at exactly what point they began to lose possession/control. It could have been immediately when tag was applied or not.

Okay, again, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement to determine a catch or control of the ball.

Also, could one make the case that F6, in this scenario, actually had caught the ball, assuming a throw from another fielder, and did not have a voluntary release? Same thing if she caught the batted ball and ran the runner back?

Why are people trying to turn this into a TWP? This is a no brainer. F6 has possession of the ball, makes a tag, F6 still has possession of the ball. At this point, the runner is out. This is undeniable. F6 then trips over retired runner, falls and loses control of the ball.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No. How can you make a tag if you don't already have possession of the ball?



Okay, again, a voluntary release is NOT a requirement to determine a catch or control of the ball.



Why are people trying to turn this into a TWP? This is a no brainer. F6 has possession of the ball, makes a tag, F6 still has possession of the ball. At this point, the runner is out. This is undeniable. F6 then trips over retired runner, falls and loses control of the ball.

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

...Why do we hesitate ...

We hesitate because the catcher had control of the ball immediately before the tag and if we see she does not have the ball in her possession immediately after the tag, then we know she must have drop it during the tag.

That, in my opinion, is a bit different than a catcher completing the tag, while still in control of the ball, and then tripping over a bat, mask or retired runner after we have seen that she did indeed maintain control of the ball during act of tagging the runner.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

Because, the OP stated that F6 had control all the way through the tag, then fell over the runner. In your sit, you see F2 with control as the runner arrives, but you're not sure she maintained it through the tag because of all the dust you're waiting to settle. The OP appeared sure that the ball was still in the glove immediately following the tag.

But... I've got one for you. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits squib to F1, who eventually picks it up and throws it home. The F2 catches the ball and immediately tries to tag R1 (DMC, but it was 10U) who is arriving at the plate and the ball comes loose. Ball got there first, but the tag attempt was immediate, so I couldn't be 100% sure of control. Give them the force or not?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Play at the plate, catcher has the ball cleanly in her glove and makes the tag on runner sliding in. Big pile up as they meet. Why do we hesitate and look for the ball. If ball is rolling around we have a safe. Even though the catcher had "control" of the ball at time of tag, if she doesn't have it when the dust settles we have a safe don't we? Or is runner out immediately when tag is made?

What is so hard to understand? I'm sorry, but you are looking for something that doesn't exist.

I cannot make it any simpler than I already have.