Mechanics Question

[varefump]

This play happened last night in a Fed. game.

Two outs, bottom of the 7th, home team down 4-2, runners on 2nd & 3rd.

Umpire was in the 'C' position over SS left shoulder. Ball hit to SS (not hard, but also not softly). SS fields the ball cleanly, glances home briefly, then fires to 1st to retire the BR. Throw is low (dirt level) and F3 kneels to scoop the ball. BU is straight-lined and cannot see F3's foot or the bag. Ball and runner arrive almost simultaneously. F3 makes a clean catch. BU cannot see the exact position of the runner's foot at the time of the catch because F3 has her body blocking the view. BU is 'pretty sure' that F3's foot was on the bag due to her not having to stretch for the ball.

BU called an out and the game was 'over'. OC comes and asks if BU can get help from PU. They get together and PU said he was watching R2 rounding 3rd and did not see the play at 1st. So play stands as called.

Is there an accepted mechanic that can be used in this situation to get the play right 100% of the time?

I advocate the 'D' starting position in this situation and therefore the BU would have been about 20 feet from 1st and in a good position to see everything. Our training instructor wants to use the modified 'C' position (halfway between ss and 2nd base).

This is a tough play and what can we do to make it easier (besides getting a third pair of eyes)?

[wadeintothem]

C is in never never land for this call at first. PU does have responsibilities at 3 such as making sure the runner touches the bag.. I would be doing that and watching the play... but it can be difficult. I chalk this stuff up to inherent problems with 2 man.

So to answer, no, there is no way to be in perfect position for this call; this is one of the shortcomings of 2 man, and there is no real good way to resolve it. Even putting BU behind the pitcher (like BB) is not good because of the 60' fields.

If teams and leagues want this called better, they need to pay for it by adding another umpire.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by varefump

This play happened last night in a Fed. game.

Two outs, bottom of the 7th, home team down 4-2, runners on 2nd & 3rd.

Umpire was in the 'C' position over SS left shoulder.

With a runner on third, why wasn't the BU behind and to the left of F5's shoulder?

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

With a runner on third, why wasn't the BU behind and to the left of F5's shoulder?

I don't think being off of either of F5's shoulders is an approved mechanic. Actually I was thinking that the C2 position would be correct in this situation, rather than the C1 described in the OP.

[Andy]

Wade nailed it.

In any C position, it is almost impossible to get a good look at the play described. Even though the PU has the responsibility of the runner coming home and the touch of third base by the trailing runner, s/he also has the responsibility of help at first.

Having the luxury to sit here and contemplate the play, I would say the priority due to the game situation would be the play at first. This play could end or prolong the ball game. I would want to get that one right. I would think that everyone in the park would be focused on that play and if the trail runner missed third, it is highly unlikely that anyone would pick that up.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Andy

Wade nailed it.

In any C position, it is almost impossible to get a good look at the play described. Even though the PU has the responsibility of the runner coming home and the touch of third base by the trailing runner, s/he also has the responsibility of help at first.

Having the luxury to sit here and contemplate the play, I would say the priority due to the game situation would be the play at first. This play could end or prolong the ball game. I would want to get that one right. I would think that everyone in the park would be focused on that play and if the trail runner missed third, it is highly unlikely that anyone would pick that up.

I agree. I suspect that a discussion over a possible pulled foot at 1B could lead to an ejection - moreso than the possibility of a runner not touching the plate or 3B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

With a runner on third, why wasn't the BU behind and to the left of F5's shoulder?

Because he probably should have been working off F6's right shoulder. That would have given him a slightly different angle, but as Wade stated, from any C position, it is always going to be tough to get a definitive angle on a play like this.

[DaveASA/FED]

Agree with others that the main focus would be the out at 1 on this play. Odds are if they are save the runner now on 3rd would head back to 3rd if F3 has the ball.

I will say one thing that might help, MIGHT...still tough call from there. Again like others have said C2 or whatever you want to call it but on 3rd base side of short stop is book placement with a runner on 3rd in two person. When that play happens try to get a better angle on the play at 1st. You should be moving in on that play so instead of trying to run right at the play making F3 shield you, try to run more to a position to get an angle on the call, even if you are farther away. Again HTBT and won't always work cause you can't get in the way of a throw to home....BUT if possible running more toward home than toward first will give you an angle to see the runners feet a little better. Again I am not trying to say this is a savior and will "fix" the situation but might help.

[azbigdawg]

Dave mentioned what I thin is the best answer.... being off F6's RIGHT shoulder and going straight toward the foul line willget you a better angle.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Agree with others that the main focus would be the out at 1 on this play. Odds are if they are save the runner now on 3rd would head back to 3rd if F3 has the ball.

I will say one thing that might help, MIGHT...still tough call from there. Again like others have said C2 or whatever you want to call it but on 3rd base side of short stop is book placement with a runner on 3rd in two person. When that play happens try to get a better angle on the play at 1st. You should be moving in on that play so instead of trying to run right at the play making F3 shield you, try to run more to a position to get an angle on the call, even if you are farther away. Again HTBT and won't always work cause you can't get in the way of a throw to home....BUT if possible running more toward home than toward first will give you an angle to see the runners feet a little better. Again I am not trying to say this is a savior and will "fix" the situation but might help.

My advice is very close to this one, but with a different angle attempted. If I was that BU, 1) I would have started off F6's right (third base side) shoulder, initially, but 2) would have worked parallel to the baseline towards 2nd on the play, for the sole purpose of NOT being straightlined on the play. I can't get any kind of angle heading in any other direction, and this direction puts me in the way of no possible throw or play.

[varefump]

Thanks for the replies.

Everyone is talking about 'approved' mechanics. I think that's the problem. Our association 'leaders' are going beyond the manual and developing mechanics designed to cover today's fast-pitch game.

The 90-degree to the throw, inside-outside theory, and button-hook are all archaic mechanics that don't fit the modern method of umpiring. These were all developed for baseball and not 60-foot bases.

We've found that working the 'rim' as much as possible is a better mechanic than the inside-outside philosophy and keeps the BU out of the line of fire.

Also, the One-Step-Fair method for the A position is far superior to the 90-degree to the throw spot that ASA used to teach.

We've developed a 'D' position (not used by the BU on this play) that puts the BU two steps from 2nd base on the 1st base side of the bag whenever there's a runner at 3rd. In the play that happened, had the BU started there, he could have just swung around (looped) behind the F4 spot and been in a position about 20 feet from 1st when the play occurred.

From the 'D' position, we've found it much easier to see the pickoff at 3rd because of our 90-degree angle to the tag. Also, from that position, we can always take the tag-up at 2nd, even on sharply hit balls to LF.

I know the 'old fogies' will object to this mechanic, but they are also the ones who probably don't like the American League DH.

Read my motto.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because he probably should have been working off F6's right shoulder. That would have given him a slightly different angle, but as Wade stated, from any C position, it is always going to be tough to get a definitive angle on a play like this.

Just reviewed the NCAA 2 man mechanics manual which reccomends being behind F6 in a set position, usually starting closer to the lead runner. I do not have my ASA book handy.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by varefump

Thanks for the replies.

Everyone is talking about 'approved' mechanics. I think that's the problem. Our association 'leaders' are going beyond the manual and developing mechanics designed to cover today's fast-pitch game.

And you guys thought he was looking for help!

[CecilOne]

In spite of feeling a bit like Tom, and thinking I've seen that scheme before, some comments:
- D or C3 is a bad position with 2 umps (the real ones, also the pseudo "D" above)

- with two outs, I definitely think C1 is better, head to PP-2nd halfway point for plays at 1st. This is almost the same angle as when we come in from A to call a play at 1st
- with a runner on 3rd, also C1 because an ump can get to a perpendicular of the runner's path quicker and the SS and ump do not get in each others way, even if the SS is throwing to 1st

- the PU has to be aware of where the BU is and the importance of the play at 1st, even before the throw goes there
- a runner from 2nd gets past sooner at C1 than C2

All of this obviously depends on umpire quickness, fielder positions, etc. but it causes no problem I see. Also, it's partly setting up to see runner(s), pitcher and plate from the same spot; often an adjustment to SS position.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by varefump

Thanks for the replies.

Everyone is talking about 'approved' mechanics. I think that's the problem. Our association 'leaders' are going beyond the manual and developing mechanics designed to cover today's fast-pitch game.

The 90-degree to the throw, inside-outside theory, and button-hook are all archaic mechanics that don't fit the modern method of umpiring. These were all developed for baseball and not 60-foot bases.

We've found that working the 'rim' as much as possible is a better mechanic than the inside-outside philosophy and keeps the BU out of the line of fire.

Also, the One-Step-Fair method for the A position is far superior to the 90-degree to the throw spot that ASA used to teach.

We've developed a 'D' position (not used by the BU on this play) that puts the BU two steps from 2nd base on the 1st base side of the bag whenever there's a runner at 3rd. In the play that happened, had the BU started there, he could have just swung around (looped) behind the F4 spot and been in a position about 20 feet from 1st when the play occurred.

From the 'D' position, we've found it much easier to see the pickoff at 3rd because of our 90-degree angle to the tag. Also, from that position, we can always take the tag-up at 2nd, even on sharply hit balls to LF.

I know the 'old fogies' will object to this mechanic, but they are also the ones who probably don't like the American League DH.

Read my motto.

If I remember correctly, this was the ASA mechanic in maybe 1990. They went away from this for a reason - I dunno what the reason was, but that's going to be good enough for me.

And no, I do not like the AL's DH.