Mechanics question

[Adam]

What is the mechanic, in NFHS, for a flagrant foul?
Had a situation in a freshman girls game last night where A-1, whose team is losing 44-11 in the second quarter, stopped her dribble, leaned back and gave a quick shove to B-1. It bordered on flagrant, but I went with an Intentional instead. But it reminded me that I'm not sure how to signal a flagrant foul.

Thanks,
Snaqs

[DownTownTonyBrown]

There is no specific signal for a Flagrant Foul - personal or technical. The intentional signal would be a good choice to start with... then

I would assume that you inform the table and the coach of your decision to call it a flagrant and get your replacement

or

grab him by the seat of the pants and the scruff of the neck and throw him out on his nose. Flagrant that!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
There is no specific signal for a Flagrant Foul - personal or technical. The intentional signal would be a good choice to start with... then

I would assume that you inform the table and the coach of your decision to call it a flagrant and get your replacement

or

grab him by the seat of the pants and the scruff of the neck and throw him out on his nose. Flagrant that!

If you signal intentional, you can't then throw the player out (unless you confess that it was the wrong signal).

A foul can be intentional or flagrant; it can't be both.

[CK]

I think I might of missed something! Under NF 4-19-4 it says "It may or may not be intentional", please explain?

CK

[DownTownTonyBrown]

So flagrant acts are not intentional? They are unintentional. Seems strange... accidentally flagrant. Sounds like a fart... accidental but oh so offendingly flagrant.... or is that fragrant? Ahh I'm arguing English semantics not rules.

I agree Bob. Rule 10-3-9 makes the differentiation for a player technical as "intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent..."

So what is your answer to the original question Bob? How is a flagrant foul administered? How do you tell the coaches/audience that a flagrant foul has been committed?

Also, reading the note at the end of section 10-3, I get the feeling that there is no ejection for a PERSONAL flagrant foul - only for the technical flagrant. Is that right?

What are some other examples of a flagrant act besides fighting? I had assumed that flagrant acts included some deliberateness... some intention.

[Huskerblue]

I have seen the mechanic for flagrant intentional as follows: Give the intentional foul signal and then proceed to pull your arms down in front of your chest, as if you were making an X in front of you. Not sure if this is an official meachanic but a few in my association say that is what they were taught.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

I agree Bob. Rule 10-3-9 makes the differentiation for a player technical as "intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent..."

So what is your answer to the original question Bob? How is a flagrant foul administered? How do you tell the coaches/audience that a flagrant foul has been committed?

Also, reading the note at the end of section 10-3, I get the feeling that there is no ejection for a PERSONAL flagrant foul - only for the technical flagrant. Is that right?

What are some other examples of a flagrant act besides fighting? I had assumed that flagrant acts included some deliberateness... some intention.

1)For a flagrant foul,you notify the player that he/she has been disqualified,then notify the scorer of the flagrant foul(and it's type-personal or technical),then tell the coach that his player has been disqualified for the flagrant foul.
2)For the penalty for a personal flagrant foul,see Rule 10-6PENALTY,plus Summary of Penalties(#4)on next page.
3)Examples of a flagrant act besides fighting are kicking,kneeing,or any violent contact that you might wanna call flagrant.
4)Right out of the definition in R4-19-4,it states that a flagrant personal foul may or may not be intentional.It's done that way,I think,to stop the second-guessing when you toss someone.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Huskerblue
I have seen the mechanic for flagrant intentional as follows: Give the intentional foul signal and then proceed to pull your arms down in front of your chest, as if you were making an X in front of you. Not sure if this is an official meachanic but a few in my association say that is what they were taught.

There is no such thing as a "flagrant intentional foul".You can have intentional technical or personal fouls(Rule4-19-3),and you can also have flagrant technical or personal fouls(Rule 4-19-4).They are two different animals,with different penalties(i.e.disqualification for flagrant but not for intentional).I think that the NFHS contributed to the confusion by using the descriptive word "premeditated" in R4-19-3,and then using "intentional" instead of again using "premeditated" in R4-19-4.

There is no approved signal for any type of flagrant foul.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 28th, 2003 at 02:28 PM]

[CK]

JR, advantage vs disadvantage, or if I may, reasoning of personal vs technical on either foul. Also on page 65 of the NF rules book 8a.(2) fighting is flagrant and the ball is awarded at the division line after the 2 free throws. I was always under the impression that the only time you awarded at the division line was on a technical. So are they saying by default this warrants a technical for fighting and not a personal flagrant? Sorry for my confusion, I am just trying to get this clear in my dense head.

Thank You

CK

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CK
JR, advantage vs disadvantage, or if I may, reasoning of personal vs technical on either foul. Also on page 65 of the NF rules book 8a.(2) fighting is flagrant and the ball is awarded at the division line after the 2 free throws. I was always under the impression that the only time you awarded at the division line was on a technical. So are they saying by default this warrants a technical for fighting and not a personal flagrant?

Good point,CK.For 8(a)2 on p.65,I assume that they are calling these flagrant technical fouls for fighting on the floor after the ball became dead.Thus,the throw-in at center.Otherwise,as you stated,the throw-in should/would be at the closest spot to the fight for the extra flagrant personal foul.

[CK]

Thanks JR, I know I can always count on you for the correct answer!

CK

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by CK
Thanks JR, I know I can always count on you for the correct answer!

Four posts under your belt, and this is your considered opinion? Talk about jumping to conclusions!!!

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Four posts under your belt, and this is your considered opinion? Talk about jumping to conclusions!!!

Chucky,

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 28th, 2003 at 09:01 PM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
I'm not sure how to signal a flagrant foul.

Since there is no official signal I like to just signal the foul, point at the player and then point at the bench. If further explanation is needed, two words will usually do it. "You're gone."

[CK]

Chuck

I also respect your insights. If I actually named the people who post to this board that I trust, where do you think I would end up as to actually fitting in on this board I have learned so much from.
No response, no credit.I have learned much from your post!!! I will continue to read your post as well, because they have content, common sense and correctness to them.

Thanks

CK

[Edited by CK on Jan 28th, 2003 at 09:43 PM]