Whoops!

[hawk65]

NFHS. Two out, runner on 3rd, 2 strikes on batter. Batter swings at next pitch which is low and outside. Pitch hits dirt just before being caught by catcher. Catcher holds up ball as though she's caught it before it hit the ground. Plate umpire did not see or hear the pitched ball bounce into catcher's mitt, signals strike three, and apparently makes some statement to catcher that batter is out. Batter thinks she is not out, jogs and gets to first base. Defense makes no play on her as they start jogging off the field. Base umpire saw the ball bounce but doesn't say anything, waiting for plate umpire to ask for help. Offensive coach asks plate umpire to get second opinion from base umpire. Umpires confer, base umpire tells plate umpire it did bounce before being caught, plate umpire changes call and rules batter-runner safe. Defense then argues that plate umpire had stated batter was out which was the reason they didn't make any play on the batter and why they were coming off the field. Can't find this listed in the rule book as an appealable play. Should base umpire say anything until or unless asked by plate umpire? In this instance, runner on third did not try to advance, but if she had and she had scored while defense was jogging off the field, would the run count or should she be put back on third?

[wadeintothem]

Any catcher worth their salt would have tagged that runner immediately, because that catcher sure as heck knew.

I would let the defense rot on their brain fart.

[7in60]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Any catcher worth their salt would have tagged that runner immediately, because that catcher sure as heck knew.

I would let the defense rot on their brain fart.

I agree with the point about the catcher, but is this obstruction by the umpire? I think the defense has a valid point. Once the ump states that the batter is out, you don't make a play.

[3afan]

there is a mechanic just for this case that the BU should use ...

if the 3rd strike pitch is not caught the BU should point to the ground to let the PU know, if it is caught simply make a fist to show it was caught - its not a signal, just signs to your partner

use of these would have prevented the situation

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by 7in60

I agree with the point about the catcher, but is this obstruction by the umpire? I think the defense has a valid point. Once the ump states that the batter is out, you don't make a play.

No its not obstruction by an umpire, its "out/safe" by an umpire, it is not tracking the ball by an umpire, and it is definitely an error by the umpire... the defense knew the player was not out. I think the defense has to eat it, and I think the PU needs to take his due heat for his major error.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No its not obstruction by an umpire, its "out/safe" by an umpire, it is not tracking the ball by an umpire, and it is definitely an error by the umpire... the defense knew the player was not out. I think the defense has to eat it, and I think the PU needs to take his due heat for his major error.

2 in a row, Wade....

Exactly right.....

[AtlUmpSteve]

Players are not out because an umpire says so; players are out because a rule says they are out, and the umpire acknowledges that out. When it is clear that they are NOT out by rule, then the umpire must acknowledge they are not out, even if that means changing his call. You call someone out on a tag, then see the ball on the ground, they are safe, aren't they?

The umpire's statement that the batter is out doesn't change the obligation of the defense to actually get the out. In this case, not only did the defense err, but the defense attempted to deceive the umpire; even if it was unknowing, or even thinking the short hop is a legal catch. The ONE PERSON on the field that absolutely knew the ball wasn't caught in flight is the catcher, so she gets ZERO reliance on the alleged jeopardy resulting from the umpire having to change his call.

To the second point, if the runner from third had scored, then the runner from third scored. The third out was not made, the catcher was not put in jeopardy by the umpire, and nothing here made it a dead ball. The defense screwed up, and reaps the result.

[Dakota]

ASSUMING the PU did in fact verbalize that the batter was out, then this is a changed call by an umpire, and the rule book does allow the umpire to rectify the situation. But, even so, there is no way an out should be awarded, and certainly not a do over. F2 tried to pull a fast one and got hoist on her own petard. Quit being so clever next time, F2, and just tag the batter.

[hawk65]

The base umpire was aware of the "closed fist" signal but plate umpire never looked to base umpire for help. Knowing immediately that an error had been made, the plate umpire was not seeking help and a volatile situation was developing, was there any other action the base umpire should have taken before waiting for the plate umpire to assist?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by 3afan

there is a mechanic just for this case that the BU should use ...

if the 3rd strike pitch is not caught the BU should point to the ground to let the PU know, if it is caught simply make a fist to show it was caught - its not a signal, just signs to your partner

use of these would have prevented the situation

Ding, ding, ding.....correct answer!

PU can't always see the short hop, especially on a drop ball close to the catcher. BU has a better look...help your partner.

Originally Posted by hawk65

...was there any other action the base umpire should have taken before waiting for the plate umpire to assist?

Nope...as a BU in this situation, I'm going to continue to hold the pointed finger down toward the ground until my partner sees it or the play is over. If BU in the OP did give the signal to help his partner...the PU needs to eat this one and take the heat.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by 3afan

there is a mechanic just for this case that the BU should use ...

if the 3rd strike pitch is not caught the BU should point to the ground to let the PU know, if it is caught simply make a fist to show it was caught - its not a signal, just signs to your partner

use of these would have prevented the situation

Would you please point me to the page in either the ASA Umpire Manual or the NFHS Umpire Manual that shows or states that this is an approved mechanic or signal?

[3afan]

Originally Posted by SRW

Would you please point me to the page in either the ASA Umpire Manual or the NFHS Umpire Manual that shows or states that this is an approved mechanic or signal?

no ...

so your local chapter does not use this mechanic - whether there are pictures in a book or not? if not, you should consider it ... it has helped us many, MANY times ...

[SRW]

Originally Posted by 3afan

no ...

so your local chapter does not use this mechanic - whether there are pictures in a book or not? if not, you should consider it ... it has helped us many, MANY times ...

What other unapproved mechanics or signals do you use?

Any double fist pumps?

Is your name Jim by chance? Do you play the piano?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SRW

What other unapproved mechanics or signals do you use?

Any double fist pumps?

Is your name Jim by chance? Do you play the piano?

Whoa, there, partner. You may disagree with it, but it is taught by umpires of high reputation and national standing.

Umpire signals are a universal language. They are a language that should have no dialect, no vernacular. Signal language is a very simple one. It is designed to be understood by anyone at any ball park. In order to be understood a signal must first be seen. This is why most signals are given from a full upright position and extended up or away from the body. Once a signal is seen, its meaning must be immediately apparent. We cannot have some people thinking we called a ‘safe’ and some thinking we called ‘timeout’ and others wishing for instant replay because they have no idea what we called. Once seen and understood a signal must convince everyone, through its strength and deliberation, that the correct call has been made.

...

Here are two signals you will not find in the manual but may want to add to your ‘bag of tricks’. They have been in use by good umpires for years to better communicate on the field and facilitate the natural flow of the game.

1. As an umpire, either plate or bases, whenever a batter has two strikes you should be prepping yourself for the possibility of a dropped third strike and know in advance whether the batter will be out immediately or must be put out at first base. When the third strike reaches the catcher both umpires must know and be in agreement whether it is caught or uncaught. As a base umpire you can communicate this information to the plate umpire with a simple clenched fist at the belt or at the side of your body if the ball is caught and a point at the ground from either the belt area or side of the body if the ball is not caught by the catcher. A plate umpire who is not sure whether the ball skipped the ground before being secured by the catcher has only to look out to the base umpire to find out. These are not sneaky signals and no more tip off a player than any other umpire-to-umpire signal. They simply enhance the communication among the crew and alert all umpires to whether or not a play is imminent.

The Umpire’s Edge–Mechanics
By Emily Alexander

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Whoa, there, partner. You may disagree with it, but it is taught by umpires of high reputation and national standing.

Oh, I didn't say that I disagree with it. I use it when the mechanics say I can use it... i.e.: NCAA games. It's been made quite clear at the ASA national level that the mechanic described above is not an approved signal.

But my point wasn't to pick apart specific signals and mechanics and decide which are good (i.e.: U3K) or bad (i.e.: double fist pumps)... it was to point out that the umpire shouldn't use unauthorized signals for the code being worked. If the mechanics for that organization authorize the U3K signals, then by all means, use it. But if they don't, then it probably shouldn't be used.