Whoops!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Whoa, there, partner. You may disagree with it, but it is taught by umpires of high reputation and national standing.

The Umpire’s Edge–Mechanics
By Emily Alexander

I'm not disagreeing with the use of the signal, and have of course used it myself; however, NUS is teaching no more "secret signals" or unapproved signals by umpires. It was a major point at NUS. This would probably fall under that category.

[ronald]

So how does ASA want this type of play handled?

Ron

[7in60]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No its not obstruction by an umpire, its "out/safe" by an umpire, it is not tracking the ball by an umpire, and it is definitely an error by the umpire... the defense knew the player was not out. I think the defense has to eat it, and I think the PU needs to take his due heat for his major error.

Fair enough.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by ronald

So how does ASA want this type of play handled?

Ron

Honestly, I dont know in terms of communication between PU/BU on a D3K. Maybe just a meeting after the play?

Youre asking the wrong guy because I often find myself at odds with what is being taught. I believe many things are simply to cater to the lowest common denominator of umpire; of which I am not. A lot of what they do is because they have to train 30K umpires, many of them nitwits.

[3afan]

Originally Posted by SRW

What other unapproved mechanics or signals do you use?

Any double fist pumps?

Is your name Jim by chance? Do you play the piano?

eh?

this mechanic is certainly approved by my local ASA and my NFHS chapters .... again, you should consider it if you dont use it

[Andy]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I'm not disagreeing with the use of the signal, and have of course used it myself; however, NUS is teaching no more "secret signals" or unapproved signals by umpires. It was a major point at NUS. This would probably fall under that category.

Read Emily's description again......the first paragraph is talking about the signals that are there for all to see, ie; safe, out, strike, etc. She is advocating that those signals are to be crisp and strong and convey a message to everyone who sees them.

The point or fist signal used on a third strike is not in that category. It is a communication signal for use only between umpires. It is in the same category as the "infield fly is in effect" signal (yes, I know that one is mentioned in the book). I was taught this signal from the beginning of my umpiring career (by Emily, no less). It's a way for the umpires to communicate the situation without tipping off either the offense or defense and allowing the players to complete the play. If you don't want to use this signal, fine. Personally, I will use it anytime I am BU and there is a third strike.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Andy

Read Emily's description again......the first paragraph is talking about the signals that are there for all to see, ie; safe, out, strike, etc. She is advocating that those signals are to be crisp and strong and convey a message to everyone who sees them.

The point or fist signal used on a third strike is not in that category. It is a communication signal for use only between umpires. It is in the same category as the "infield fly is in effect" signal (yes, I know that one is mentioned in the book). I was taught this signal from the beginning of my umpiring career (by Emily, no less). It's a way for the umpires to communicate the situation without tipping off either the offense or defense and allowing the players to complete the play. If you don't want to use this signal, fine. Personally, I will use it anytime I am BU and there is a third strike.

No, its not the same as the IF signal. IF signal is in the manual. This one is not. Umpire - umpire nonapproved communication is exactly what they were talking about. Dont interpret this to mean i agree with them, because I dont. I think whatever you work out with your partner or is understood in the general umpiring community is fine. This type of communication is not allowed per NUS.

[Dakota]

I agree the ASA instruction is to not use nonapproved umpire-to-umpire signals. I think you hit near the reason earlier (although I disagree with your general condemnation of the larger population of ASA umpires... sure there are some in that category, but the generalization is offensive more than helpful... but, nevermind, that is off point). The kind of signals used by the infamous poster to whom SRW referred is perhaps what ASA is trying to put a stop to.

Personally, I find the BU's D3K signal helpful. I think ASA should include it in their "approved" list. The only argument I can think of against it is that it definitely can signal to an observant coach that the BU disagrees with the PU's call, and if it is the BU that is wrong, trouble ensues.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by 3afan

eh?

this mechanic is certainly approved by my local ASA and my NFHS chapters .... again, you should consider it if you dont use it

Here in Pa, we're teaching that in the Fed meetings, using material from the state organization. And, we also teach it in ASA.

[Skahtboi]

Same in Texas as far as NFHS goes. I think, though, as 3afan has pointed out, his metro UIC has apparently approved it, and I think that is how it is working here. Various state and metro organizations either approving or disapproving it.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I agree the ASA instruction is to not use nonapproved umpire-to-umpire signals. I think you hit near the reason earlier (although I disagree with your general condemnation of the larger population of ASA umpires... sure there are some in that category, but the generalization is offensive more than helpful... but, nevermind, that is off point). The kind of signals the infamous poster SRW referred to is perhaps what ASA is trying to put a stop to.

Personally, I find the BU's D3K signal helpful. I think ASA should include it in their "approved" list. The only argument I can think of against it is that it definitely can signal to an observant coach that the BU disagrees with the PU's call, and if it is the BU that is wrong, trouble ensues.

SRW is infamous? I am ROFLMAO. We'll share a hearty laff this weekend while we work to train our two dozen new umpires (not counting the dozen or more from our youth umpire program). Anyway...

For those of you who work NFHS, one of the three points of emphasis this year is use of unauthorized signals. They don't want them. It's pretty plainly stated back there in the rule book...

ASA also does not want unauthorized signals. This comes from the very top -- I heard Kevin say those words in person. Whether it's to appeal to the LCD or whoever doesn't really matter, ASA doesn't want them. 'Course, that only applies to championship play, so feel free to use it along with the double fist pump, ignoring the inside-outside theory, 30-foot wide buttonhooks cuz it's easier to cheat than to hustle, etc. ad infinitum ad VERY nauseum.

Yesterday I worked a DH using NCAA rules (juco games), and twice pointed down and once gave a closed fist. I also think it's an excellent mechanic, and will lobby my neighbor, er, NFHS Official representative on the rules committee, to include them in the future. You all may feel free to do the same -- I think her contact information may be available on the NFHS site, and if not I will give you her info (yes I do have permission...and by the way Eric -- the coach in the wheelchair -- said it was ok to use his personal info).

Meanwhile, when working NFHS and ASA games, championship play or no, I will stow Peter Point and Closed Fist right next to my kitchen timer.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

SRW is infamous? I am ROFLMAO. We'll share a hearty laff this weekend while we work to train our two dozen new umpires (not counting the dozen or more from our youth umpire program). Anyway...

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I said

The kind of signals the infamous poster SRW referred to...

I meant

The kind of signals used by the infamous poster to whom SRW referred...

I changed the original post.

[SRW]

Yeah I don't wanna be infamous. I'm not that old, yet.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Personally, I find the BU's D3K signal helpful. I think ASA should include it in their "approved" list. The only argument I can think of against it is that it definitely can signal to an observant coach that the BU disagrees with the PU's call, and if it is the BU that is wrong, trouble ensues.

Think about it this way.. how many times has it help YOU as PU? I dont look over to my BU before making a call. Of course I'm willing to discuss a call like this with him in case it was short hopped or something and I missed it.

Do you turn to your BU before making calls?

I dont.

There are lots of arguments. This is just one of those communications umpires do.. without a lot of quantifiable purpose. Similar to the secret signal for "good call" on a banger etc.

I've used it. But I dont think it will ever be in the book.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Do you turn to your BU before making calls?

Not in general, but how about this... pitch, batter swings and misses for 3K on a low pitch. You believe the ball was caught, but it was close. Batter starts running, F2 stands and shows you the ball. Would you glance at the BU to look for a signal, or just rule the batter out?

The signal is not useful on EVERY 3K, just on the ones where you, as PU, aren't sure.