Foul tip?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

You wouldn't treat it as a blocked ball? ASA 8-5-G & R/S17?

No, because it isn't a blocked ball (as BretMan noted).

The ball became stuck in official equipment properly worn by the DEFENSE over which the DEFENSE has total control. Now, if the ball entered and became lodge, stuck or took on any status to which the defense did not have immediate and unrestricted access to the ball, then it is a Dead Ball.

Check out 8.5.M

[Steve M]

Mike,
Didn't the original post state that the ball was lodged, and that the catcher reached in & got it? Maybe nit-picking, but if it's lodged I would think it should be dead.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Mike,
Didn't the original post state that the ball was lodged, and that the catcher reached in & got it? Maybe nit-picking, but if it's lodged I would think it should be dead.

Which rule reference would you use that says a ball lodged in defensive uniform or equipment that is not loose meets the definition of a blocked ball, or any rule defining a dead ball? Everyone I see relates to either loose equipment or an offensive uniform.

I'm looking at 8-5.G, 8-5.M, RS-17, and Blocked Ball (definition). They all seem to NOT apply when lodged in defensive equipment still worn. I think this is one where one may assume it SHOULD apply, but actually doesn't.

[greymule]

if it's lodged I would think it should be dead.

ASA 8-4-H

"Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out . . . when a live ball becomes lodged in a defensive player's uniform or equipment."

From case play 8.4-9

". . . the ball remains live while it is entangled in a defensive player's uniform or equipment."

[BretMan]

greymule,

There- you found something that addresses a ball entering a uniform or equipment. Good job! I must have read right past it a couple of times.

That rule tells us that the ball remains live upon entering the uniform/equipment (ie: runners may still advance and outs can still be made).

With respect to the foul tip in question, the rule you cite combined with the definition of a catch tells us that this is a legally caught foul tip.

Under the definition of catch, we see: If the ball is merely held in the arms or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder's body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder's hand(s) or glove.

So, a live ball entering the uniform/equipment of a defender remains live and may be extracted, then securely held for a legal catch. That means the catcher on our play did legally catch a batted ball that first went sharp and direct to her hands or mitt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Mike,
Didn't the original post state that the ball was lodged, and that the catcher reached in & got it? Maybe nit-picking, but if it's lodged I would think it should be dead.

Yes, it did say it was lodged, in a defender's legal and properly worn gear. The defense allowed the ball on which they were making a play become lodged, not the offense. If a runner is stealing, are you going to put them back on 1B and penalize the offense for a defensive faux pas? The is the defense's problem, no one elses. There is no ASA rule supporting ruling this ball dead, at least none that I can find.

[greymule]

Well, I guess we've established that the OP is indeed a foul tip. Thank you all for your input.

Now:

Bases loaded, nicked ball goes hand to shoulder to lodged behind the protector. Offensive coach knows to send all the runners while the catcher is struggling with the protector, and all three cross the plate. You, of course, watch to see whether the catcher ever gets secure possession.

The pitcher decides to give the catcher some help and comes in and lifts the protector away from F2's body, and the ball falls out into the pitcher's hand.

OK. Everybody back on your bases!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

Well, I guess we've established that the OP is indeed a foul tip. Thank you all for your input.

Now:

Bases loaded, nicked ball goes hand to shoulder to lodged behind the protector. Offensive coach knows to send all the runners while the catcher is struggling with the protector, and all three cross the plate. You, of course, watch to see whether the catcher ever gets secure possession.

The pitcher decides to give the catcher some help and comes in and lifts the protector away from F2's body, and the ball falls out into the pitcher's hand.

OK. Everybody back on your bases!

That would be a foul ball

[greymule]

That would be a foul ball

Right. For the play to be a foul tip, F2 would have to catch the ball. But since F1 is the one who secured the ball, it's simply a foul. That's why all runners would return.

Now let's posit that in the confusion with the ball lodged behind the protector and the coach exhorting the runners to advance, one of the runners passed another. Would she still be out if the potential foul tip didn't materialize and the ball became simply a foul?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by greymule

That would be a foul ball

Right. For the play to be a foul tip, F2 would have to catch the ball. But since F1 is the one who secured the ball, it's simply a foul. That's why all runners would return.

Now let's posit that in the confusion with the ball lodged behind the protector and the coach exhorting the runners to advance, one of the runners passed another. Would she still be out if the potential foul tip didn't materialize and the ball became simply a foul?

The ball was live until F1 touched it, so anything that happened would seem to remain. But, a foul ball is a foul ball, so nothing happens. Wait, the ball was caught in flight, batter out, runners may advance after tagging. So, all base running rules apply.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

That would be a foul ball

Right. For the play to be a foul tip, F2 would have to catch the ball. But since F1 is the one who secured the ball, it's simply a foul. That's why all runners would return.

Now let's posit that in the confusion with the ball lodged behind the protector and the coach exhorting the runners to advance, one of the runners passed another. Would she still be out if the potential foul tip didn't materialize and the ball became simply a foul?

No.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yes, it did say it was lodged, in a defender's legal and properly worn gear. The defense allowed the ball on which they were making a play become lodged, not the offense. If a runner is stealing, are you going to put them back on 1B and penalize the offense for a defensive faux pas? The is the defense's problem, no one elses. There is no ASA rule supporting ruling this ball dead, at least none that I can find.

Mike,
As I stop and think - I know novel thought - the ball is live and the ruling makes sense and I have even made that call in the past. Dunno what I was thinking, but obviously it was soemthing else.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Mike,
As I stop and think - I know novel thought - the ball is live and the ruling makes sense and I have even made that call in the past. Dunno what I was thinking, but obviously it was soemthing else.

Must have been jet lag

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, because it isn't a blocked ball (as BretMan noted).

The ball became stuck in official equipment properly worn by the DEFENSE over which the DEFENSE has total control. Now, if the ball became entered and became lodge, stuck or took on any status to which the defense did not have immediate and unrestricted access to the ball, then it is a Dead Ball.

Check out 8.5.M

I stand corrected. Gotta read far enough.

[ukumpire]

ISF: Rule 1 ~ Definitions ~ 39 ~ Foul Tip
Sec. 39 FOUL TIP.

A foul tip is a batted ball which
a. Goes directly from the bat to the catcher's hands.
b. Goes not higher than the batter's head, and c. Is legally caught by the catcher.
NOTE: It is not a foul tip unless caught; and any foul tip that is caught is a strike. In Fast Pitch the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball first touched the catcher's hand(s) or glove.

Okay so the play is Not a Foul Tip and cannot be a valid Catch after touching the Protector.

But it Remains Live (Although I have no Rule to back this up with!!