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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 01:18pm
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California Change-up

Speaking ASA

Had a nice discussion with a young lady who has been instructing some youth pitchers.

She was telling me that she had a serious argument with one of the "daddy" coaches concerning this pitch, insisting that it was totally legal and this girl had no idea of what she was doing when she disagreed.

As shown to me, it is a ball which the pitcher releases back-hand the first time past the hip and then continues with another revolution.

I suggested she have the daddy read 6FP.3.M which forbids a revolution of the arm after releasing the ball.

Before you start talking about "two revolutions", remember, this is post-delivery, not part of it. The pitcher can follow through after the pitch. However, as demonstrated, the pitching arm continues in a revolution again coming back past the hip, not just dropping down to the side.

Now, here is my question for you FP maniacs, which umpire is going to make that call? With the ball in flight, I could see where the PU may not notice the pitcher's arm after the release.


edited to note rule set though probably the same in all

Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 05:08pm.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 01:58pm
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I dunno. First blush, I think maybe I will think whoa, that's different, what the heck did I just see? It might take a half-inning conference with my partner to figure it out, but it's so much out of the norm that it might not take that long.

I'd also think that some offensive coach (that's a coach on offense, not an offensive coach) might notice and, uh, bring it to someone's attention.

Then, of course, we have a little chat including the defensive coach, who will say, "Blue, she's always pitched that way and no one else has ever called it."
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Had a nice discussion with a young lady who has been instructing some youth pitchers.

She was telling me that she had a serious argument with one of the "daddy" coaches concerning this pitch, insisting that it was totally legal and this girl had no idea of what she was doing when she disagreed.

As shown to me, it is a ball which the pitcher releases back-hand the first time past the hip and then continues with another revolution.

I suggested she have the daddy read 6FP.3.M which forbids a revolution of the arm after releasing the ball.

Before you start talking about "two revolutions", remember, this is post-delivery, not part of it. The pitcher can follow through after the pitch. However, as demonstrated, the pitching arm continues in a revolution again coming back past the hip, not just dropping down to the side.

Now, here is my question for you FP maniacs, which umpire is going to make that call? With the ball in flight, I could see where the PU may not notice the pitcher's arm after the release.
I have actually made that call before. It was in a tournament a couple of years ago, 18U or 16U, I don't recall. Anyway, we had been discussing that in the umpire camp previously, and had looked it up. So, I had a heads up that there was pitcher who was doing this, and as luck would have it, I was the one to get her next. There was an argument with the Coach, who I am sure was the dad, complete with all the usual rhetoric of "nothing wrong with it" and "no one else has called it"...etc. I think the thing that most amazes me or that stands out about this incident is the fact that later in the game she tried it again. Yet another conversation ensued with coach which resulted in the famous phrase "you just need to let the girls play," and a warning from me that our conversation about this pitch was over.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 02:42pm
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Speaking USSSA, Illegal Pitch.

6.1.G THE PITCHER MAY USE ANY WINDUP DESIRED PROVIDED:

5 The pitcher does not continue to wind up after taking the forward step or after the ball is released.


The OP is correct in it's assumption that, if I was PU, I may not see the extra revolution of the pitching arm, but as BU, I may not see it in 1st position, but I would have a better chance of seeing the IP if I was in 2nd or 3rd position.

I haven't been calling FED (this spring I am coming back after a 3 year absence), but isn't it also IP in FED?
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 02:43pm
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I haven't seen that one yet, but I think even behind the plate I'd catch the second revolution and call IP. As BU, definitely.

Last year I saw a remarkable change-up in which the girl separated her hands normally, and then in what appeared to be the beginning of the windmill delivery, dropped her hand to the side and to the rear. But then as she rocked forward she delivered the ball, past the hip, as both arms swung forward and reached high, and then swung back downward as if in a double-pump. Delivered with a forward step. No second revolution. She threw it twice, backhanded and with a lot of spin, and got it over both times.

As I remember, the offensive coach made a bit of noise about its being an IP, but when I asked him what rule it violated, all he could say was something about "deception."

After the game, I asked her to duplicate it for me. After watching it several times, I concluded that it was indeed legal.

Note: For some reason, many umpires around here have applied the word deception to any pitch they want to call illegal, especially in SP. It's a catchall that has unfortunately spread to players and now apparently to some FP coaches. A related myth is that a SP pitcher is guilty of "deception" if he throws a pitch in a motion different from his usual motion, even if the pitch is otherwise legal. I've even seen this misinterpretation taught at clinics.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 03:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Now, here is my question for you FP maniacs, which umpire is going to make that call? With the ball in flight, I could see where the PU may not notice the pitcher's arm after the release.
We don't get a lot of variation up here on the tundra, most of our issues are feet related. But, many moons ago, I did come across a young lady, transplanted from the west coast, who did deliver a few changeups in the described manner. I didn't call the first one - I was still in "What the heck did she just do? mode - but I called the second one. After that, she complied - forcing me to believe that she had been taught to throw it illegally until she was forced to throw it legally.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
Note: For some reason, many umpires around here have applied the word deception to any pitch they want to call illegal, especially in SP. It's a catchall that has unfortunately spread to players and now apparently to some FP coaches. A related myth is that a SP pitcher is guilty of "deception" if he throws a pitch in a motion different from his usual motion, even if the pitch is otherwise legal. I've even seen this misinterpretation taught at clinics.
Isn't deception a large part of FP?
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue
Isn't deception a large part of FP?
Yup, like a changeup/curve/drop/riser or any other pitch - all delivered with a similar motion. Without such deception, put it on a tee.

I haven't seen the california changeup, so I'd probably miss it the first time it was thrown - but like John, I'd be wondering what was that I just saw and get it the second time.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 03:53pm
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I haven't personally seen this used in a game. But if I ever do, I'll be ready for it! I've seen the pitch debated on discussion boards several times over the past few years. This prompted me to bring it up to a couple of the old-time pitchers that currently coach in the fastpitch league where I play.

Both had been pitching since the 60's and both had knowledge of this pitch- only they both knew it as the "Chinese Change-Up". And both had learned it from pitchers that were old-timers when they first started pitching forty years ago!
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NM FP Ump
Speaking USSSA, Illegal Pitch.

but isn't it also IP in FED?
Of course.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan
the "Chinese Change-Up"
Did the Chinese change-Up start any Chinese Fire Drills?

We used to play Chinese Poker, Chinese Dominoes and a few other games, We "invented" Chinese Uno at our house. A truly great game...basically backwards Uno. If you drew the dreaded Draw four, everyone except you had to draw four...same thing for draw two. If you drew Reverse, you got to choose the player who played next, and it went in the reverse direction from there. After some debate we decided you could not call yourself as the next player to play upon drawing a reverse card.

Lotsa things used to be the Chinese whatever, until we all had PC forced on us. Here in the PC capitol of the world, we don't even have "Chinatown" any more. It is the "International District." Of course, now thinking about it, there are probly more Vietnamese and Hmong over there than Chinese. BUT...the Chinese have been up here since the late 1800s, and it will no doubt still be referred to as Chinatown, even if not officially, long after I am gone.

Can you tell I am bored? Hurry up umpire training...
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 04:59pm
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Around here, we normally call it the "slip pitch." I know of a few girls who throw it. A few coaches will teach it, but won't admit it in public afterwards.

And I've personally heard an umpire compliment a pitcher who threw this pitch in a game on her "great change up." Of course, that's what I've come to expect out of a lot of WFC umpires.

I've found that just the fact that the pitcher throws it once, even if the umpire calls an IP on it, some batters are hung up watching for it for the rest of that game.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 09:39am
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Deception within the rules is ok, deception that is prohibited by the rules is not.

Last edited by Scooby; Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:01pm.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2007, 12:19pm
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It has been a long time since I have seen this type of pitching motion but I have seen it and all three umps on the field called it on the second and subsequant pitches.
Yes, we all definately missed it the first time or rather it caught us off guard.
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