Injury Sub

[Chess Ref]

ASA rule set.....It was a friendly tourney, reasonably so anyway.

Team has 12 players, straight nine line-up........Top of the 4th team subs out the first 3 batters.

Top of the 5th ,player batting in the 5 spot ,gets hurt and cannot continue.

At this point does that team now have to play short-handed because the 3 players on the bench can't sub in for the 5th batter ?

It's the first time this has happened in one of my games and was a little wobbly on this sitch........

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

ASA rule set.....It was a friendly tourney, reasonably so anyway.

Team has 12 players, straight nine line-up........Top of the 4th team subs out the first 3 batters.

Top of the 5th ,player batting in the 5 spot ,gets hurt and cannot continue.

At this point does that team now have to play short-handed because the 3 players on the bench can't sub in for the 5th batter ?

It's the first time this has happened in one of my games and was a little wobbly on this sitch........

Unfortunately, well... Yeah. Coach took a gamble and lost by not holding onto a sub.

However, some leagues and friendly tourneys may have provisions for something like this, but they would have gone over it at the umpire's meeting in the morning.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

, but they would have gone over it at the umpire's meeting in the morning.

Wow you have umpire meetings in the morning. We pretty much have to show up early and decipher the tourney rules and go at from there......

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Wow you have umpire meetings in the morning. We pretty much have to show up early and decipher the tourney rules and go at from there......

Wow, you have tourney rules

My investigative powers are much around the end of summer.

[SRW]

Our fall friendly tourneys are like this - the teams can use an ASA lineup or they can bat their entire roster in attendance. Most choose the later.

If they choose to use the ASA lineup, then they suffer the issues that come with it. If they choose to bat their entire lineup, then they have to bat everyone... but if someone is injured, we remove that person and "shrink" it with no penalty, until they hit 8 players.

So in reference to the OP, sorry coach, you have no available substitutes. You're at 8 and have to play shorthanded.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SRW

Our fall friendly tourneys are like this - the teams can use an ASA lineup or they can bat their entire roster in attendance. Most choose the later.

If they choose to use the ASA lineup, then they suffer the issues that come with it. If they choose to bat their entire lineup, then they have to bat everyone... but if someone is injured, we remove that person and "shrink" it with no penalty, until they hit 8 players.

So in reference to the OP, sorry coach, you have no available substitutes. You're at 8 and have to play shorthanded.

Yeah, most of our leagues have a provision in the rules that if a player misses their turn at bat due to an injury, it's not an out. It encourages safety and allows teams and players to decide what's best for the injured player who has to go to work the next morning. It's rec ball, guys.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yeah, most of our leagues have a provision in the rules that if a player misses their turn at bat due to an injury, it's not an out. It encourages safety and allows teams and players to decide what's best for the injured player who has to go to work the next morning. It's rec ball, guys.

Which makes you wonder why there are not more players on the team.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which makes you wonder why there are not more players on the team.

It's no wonder when you've got hot bats and hot heads. The heads just seem to get hotter and hotter...

[JefferMC]

In games during two different ASA tournaments this year, both allowing two EP in the batting order, the following situations occured:

1) Defense has 11 players and is batting 2 EP's. F2 gets taken out in a collision at the plate, can't return. An EP goes to F4, allowing F4 to take F2's place. Since there is no-one to take the injured players position, an out occurs during her at bats.

2) Offense has 12 players, is batting the allowed 2 EP's. EP gets injured on a mistep at the first bag. OC talks to plate ump and the result of the conversation is that the EP slot may be dropped from the lineup with no penalty during her next at bat, even though there was an available sub to take the slot. I asked PU about it after the game and he stated that it would have been different had it been a position player, but as it was an EP, it was okay. I thought this was rather fishy, as any player can be made into the EP by swapping defensive positions...

Since ASA doesn't officially allow EP, the rule book isn't a whole lot of help. But what do you think?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

In games during two different ASA tournaments this year, both allowing two EP in the batting order, the following situations occured:

1) Defense has 11 players and is batting 2 EP's. F2 gets taken out in a collision at the plate, can't return. An EP goes to F4, allowing F4 to take F2's place. Since there is no-one to take the injured players position, an out occurs during her at bats.

2) Offense has 12 players, is batting the allowed 2 EP's. EP gets injured on a mistep at the first bag. OC talks to plate ump and the result of the conversation is that the EP slot may be dropped from the lineup with no penalty during her next at bat, even though there was an available sub to take the slot. I asked PU about it after the game and he stated that it would have been different had it been a position player, but as it was an EP, it was okay. I thought this was rather fishy, as any player can be made into the EP by swapping defensive positions...

Since ASA doesn't officially allow EP, the rule book isn't a whole lot of help. But what do you think?

Is this a SP tourney? Or FP? MP? The whole darned thing sounds fishy to me.

[Andy]

ASA does not allow the EP, as you mentioned, so I went to the USSSA book for a reference, since that organization does allow an EP.

Originally Posted by JefferMC

1) Defense has 11 players and is batting 2 EP's. F2 gets taken out in a collision at the plate, can't return. An EP goes to F4, allowing F4 to take F2's place. Since there is no-one to take the injured players position, an out occurs during her at bats.

USSSA Rule 6, Sec 2 - If a team begins play with normally allowed number of players, that team may continue a game with one less player than it started with, whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than ejection. If the player leaving the game is a runner, they shall be declared out. When the player who has left the game is scheduled to bat, an out shall be declared for each turn at bat. The players who have left the game cannot return to the lineup.

An out would be the correct procedure when the position comes to bat again.

Originally Posted by JefferMC

2) Offense has 12 players, is batting the allowed 2 EP's. EP gets injured on a mistep at the first bag. OC talks to plate ump and the result of the conversation is that the EP slot may be dropped from the lineup with no penalty during her next at bat, even though there was an available sub to take the slot. I asked PU about it after the game and he stated that it would have been different had it been a position player, but as it was an EP, it was okay. I thought this was rather fishy, as any player can be made into the EP by swapping defensive positions....

USSSA Rule 6, Sec 3 - ...If the additional player is used, the position must be used the entire game.

Even though USSSA only allows one EP in the lineup, ths rule states that if a team starts the game with an EP, the EP must be used the entire game. So for the situation posted above, the available sub must be used to replace the injured EP.


Thanks for posting these scenarios. I regularly work tournaments for an oganization called Triple Crown Sports. They use ASA rules, including DP/FLEX, but allow an EP in the batting lineup as well. I'm going to talk to my assignor and get claification on how situations like these should be handled, since there are no documented rules.

[JefferMC]

Is this a SP tourney? Or FP? MP? The whole darned thing sounds fishy to me.

This group ran about 8 FP tournaments this year for 10U through 16U. Only two were qualifiers, in which the EP's were not allowed, the others all allowed two EP's, which was the only announced variation from ASA rules. However, courtesy runners for the pitcher and catcher were also common in these tournaments.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

This group ran about 8 FP tournaments this year for 10U through 16U. Only two were qualifiers, in which the EP's were not allowed, the others all allowed two EP's, which was the only announced variation from ASA rules. However, courtesy runners for the pitcher and catcher were also common in these tournaments.

No need to announce courtesy runners for F1 and F2 as a rule variation; it is the ASA rule for championship play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The whole darned thing sounds fishy to me.

Might be, generally because the tournament sponsors are trying to get more teams by appeasing the other sanctions.

BTW, in USSSA, it's AP (additional player).

[JefferMC]

No need to announce courtesy runners for F1 and F2 as a rule variation; it is the ASA rule for championship play.

The sun was in my eyes. The wind was too strong. There are too many danged rulesets.

My bad. Obviously.