Obs

[tcblue13]

Your favorite Ruleset

R1 on 1B 1-1
R1 Steals 2B where F4 is standing on the 1B side of the bag without the ball. F4's legs are a good 24" apart allowing plenty of room for a slide under. R1 slides but instead of sliding into the bag, she intentionally slides into the left ankle of F4 which is at least 6-8 inches off the bag injuring her. F2's throw sails into CF so that R1 would have easily made it to 3B.

Is R1 protected to 3B if you cal OBS?
Do you have USC or malicious contact?

I ask this because in a clinic (NFHS) we had last year, we were told that as long as the runner had access to the bag not to call OBS. That just does not feel or sound right to me. The injury thing was just an interesting caveat to better understand the rule and your ruling.

[MD Longhorn]

It is OBS if two things happen - 1) fielder in the way without the ball, and 2) runner alters her path because of (1). (The statement that you don't have OBS if a fielder gives part of the bag is nonsense, and patently false. The runner chooses her basepath, and the fielder must be out of it.

We have (1). I'm not convinced we have (2) on this play. Having to alter her path to the base is one thing. Her altering her path intentionally AWAY from the base (which is what this sounds like) doesn't qualify. This one is EXTREMELY HTBT. If I was certain, after digesting all of the cues available, that the runner ran into the fielder ON PURPOSE, we have INT, not OBS.

[Andy]

First of all, i agree 100% with Mr. Crowder. The runner has the right to the entire base, not just the part that the defense decides to "give" her.

To me, the key to your entire scenario is this:

Originally Posted by tcblue13

R1 slides but instead of sliding into the bag, she intentionally slides into the left ankle of F4 which is at least 6-8 inches off the bag injuring her.

I added the emphasis.

The runner cannot intentionally run or slide into the fielder to draw an obstruction call. If I was certain that the runner intentionally slid into the fielder, at minimum, I have nothing, at maximum, I have USC and malicious contact and an ejection.

I can imagine that this would be very tough to judge in real time.

[MNBlue]

I agree with mbcrowder and Andy. Especially if R1 was wearing metal spikes.

[Steve M]

Let me jump in & agree too. And, per Mark's comment - younger players are going to need to learn to deal with metal spikes now for Fed ball.
Like Andy said - you might just have an out & ejection and some paperwork.
Even an obstructed runner has got to run the bases legally.

TC - If you heard this correctly "I ask this because in a clinic (NFHS) we had last year, we were told that as long as the runner had access to the bag not to call OBS.", you were wrongly instructed. MB told you what you need for obstruction.

[Skahtboi]

So far what has been said by all sounds correctly, though I agree that this is, in Mike C's words, an extremely HTBT call.

[BretMan]

With the fielder blocking full access to the bag, the runner sliding in a legal manner and making contact with the fielder's ankle, I'm having a hard time picturing interference or malicious contact.

"6-8 inches" off the bag doesn't sound like a wide enough tolerance to assume that the runner was "going out of her way" to make contact. I can picture that while rest of the runner's entire body is right in-line with the base.

I'm going to need to see more than that- the runner sliding away from the bag, slashing or kicking at the fielder, making contact above the knee- before you can convince me that a runner executing a legal slide is the guilty party here.

Guess that's why they call 'em "HTBT"!

[Dakota]

To all of the above, I would add that a legal slide is always legal contact. ASA does not define a legal or illegal slide. NFHS does.

How do you know it was intentional? Was the intent to injure the fielder? Did the runner still slide close enough to the bag to make contact with the bag? Other than your using the word "intentionally" - what about the slide was illegal?

NFHS legal slide, "If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed."

NFHS illegal slide, "...d. the runner slashes of kicks the fielder with either leg, or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder."

Notice it does not say "intentionally slides into" the fielder.

If the slide was otherwise legal, making contact with the fielder does not make it illegal. This was not crash interference. It was a slide.

[BretMan]

Tom,

Sounds like we both have the same take on this- posted one minute apart!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

Your favorite Ruleset

R1 on 1B 1-1
R1 Steals 2B where F4 is standing on the 1B side of the bag without the ball. F4's legs are a good 24" apart allowing plenty of room for a slide under. R1 slides but instead of sliding into the bag, she intentionally slides into the left ankle of F4 which is at least 6-8 inches off the bag injuring her. F2's throw sails into CF so that R1 would have easily made it to 3B.

Is R1 protected to 3B if you cal OBS?

Only if you, the umpire chose to protect her. Personally, I may feel that is a subsequent play and had the OBS not occurred, the runner probably wouldn't even contemplate heading to 3B.

Do you have USC or malicious contact?

No, not if sliding where she did she still would have attained the base. After all, the runner did exactly what the rules state she can do to avoid a collision, slide.

I ask this because in a clinic (NFHS) we had last year, we were told that as long as the runner had access to the bag not to call OBS. That just does not feel or sound right to me. The injury thing was just an interesting caveat to better understand the rule and your ruling.

You may be reading too much into what you believe you were told. Most likely, they were refering to a player who may have been stradling or standing behind, the base, not between the runner and base. This runner would have full access to the base. However, that does not mean OBS cannot be called if the runner chooses to go through the base and is then obstructed by the fielder without the ball.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I ask this because in a clinic (NFHS) we had last year, we were told that as long as the runner had access to the bag not to call OBS. That just does not feel or sound right to me. The injury thing was just an interesting caveat to better understand the rule and your ruling.

NFHS-wise: If the runner was not hindered in his attempt to reach the base, then I would not call obstruction. You said F4's feet were 24-inches apart. Did that allow the runner access to the whole base? If so, I wouldn't call obstruction.

The runner still has the burden to slide legally. Under NFHS rules, it is an "illegal slide" if the "runner tries to injure the fielder." This is true even if the runner is obstructed.

I would not be quick to make this call, but if it seems very obvious that the runner was going after the fielder, for the expressed purpose of injuring him, I'd rule an "illegal slide" - the runner would be out.

Again, I'd give the runner a lot of latitude in this area, especially if F4 was "squeezing" the runner for access to the bag.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

NFHS-wise: If the runner was not hindered in his attempt to reach the base, then I would not call obstruction. You said F4's feet were 24-inches apart. Did that allow the runner access to the whole base? If so, I wouldn't call obstruction.

The OP clearly states that the fielder was on the 1B side of the base. I don't care if she has here feet 72" apart, if it impedes the runner while not in possession of the ball, it is OBS.

Again, I'd give the runner a lot of latitude in this area, especially if F4 was "squeezing" the runner for access to the bag.

Access to the base. Not access to the corner or "what you can get if you slide between my legs", etc. Remember, unless in possession of the ball or fielding a batted ball, the defender has no, zero, nil, zip, nada rights on the field as it pertains to runners or positioning.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN[/quote]

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The OP clearly states that the fielder was on the 1B side of the base. I don't care if she has here feet 72" apart, if it impedes the runner while not in possession of the ball, it is OBS.

I agree with you, but the key phrase in your comment above is "if it impedes the runner."

I think an umpire could very well conclude that a runner was not impeded even if the fielder is positioned on the runner's side of the bag without possession of the ball.

Obstruction is not solely about the fielder's position. It is that plus the hindering of the runner. Those two have to come together.

If that weren't the case, then virtually every runner who found themselves in a rundown would be obstructed the instant the pursuing fielder threw the ball; because that would mean that a fielder was now standing between the runner and a base without possession of the ball.

Access to the base. Not access to the corner or "what you can get if you slide between my legs", etc.

Agreed.

Remember, unless in possession of the ball or fielding a batted ball, the defender has no, zero, nil, zip, nada rights on the field as it pertains to runners or positioning.

Zero rights "on the field" ???

I think you mean "to be positioned between the runner and the base." But even that's not obstruction unless the runner is hindered in some way. And, yes, I agree, giving the runner partial access to the base is still impeding the runner.

Example: R1 at 2nd base. Base hit to right field. R1 rounds 3rd and is attempting to score. F9's throw pulls the catcher 5-feet up the 3rd baseline. For a period of time, F2 is positioned 5-feet in front of home (between 3rd and home) while waiting for F9's off target throw.

This may or maynot be obstruction, depending on the location of R1 during the time period that F2 was positioned "illegally" without possession of the ball. If R1 was still far enough away (i.e. just rounding 3rd), the umpire could rule that F2's positioning wasn't a factor and R1 was not hindered because they were too far away.

I agree with everything you've said. I'm just making the point that it is not necessarily obstruction when a fielder is positioned between a runner and a base without possession of the ball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

NFHS-wise: If the runner was not hindered in his attempt to reach the base, then I would not call obstruction. You said F4's feet were 24-inches apart. Did that allow the runner access to the whole base? If so, I wouldn't call obstruction.

If we could wipe out all mention of "access to the base" in everyone's brain, we'd be much further along than we are.

Access to the base is MEANINGLESS Coach-speak. Forget it. Irrelevant!!!

There are two keys. 1) Fielder between the runner and the base she's trying to attain, without possession of the ball (assuming we're not talking about a batted ball here), and 2) The runner altering her path because of (1). It is no more difficult than that.

As to the OP - the fielder is obviously guilty of (1). the question is, however - did the runner alter her path because of that, with the disclaimer that a runner altering her path to intentionally draw an OBS call is not OBS - for example, moving TOWARD a fielder that was not previously in your way.

I took the OP at it's word - that the movement into the fielder's leg was intentional. You had better be SURE of this before ruling it. If it was not intentional, you have OBS.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I...and 2) The runner altering her path because of (1). ...

Small nit to pick. I don't like "altering her path" (although I know what you mean). I'd prefer to say what the rule says, "2) The runner was impeded because of (1)". Slowing down is being impeded, but may not be viewed as altering her path.