FLEX bats #10 - NFHS v ASA

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

In NFHS, FLEX is out an restricted (illegal sub for B1), B1 is out and restricted (illegal sub for B2), and B2 is out and restricted (illegal sub for B3). B4 is due up their next half inning (assuming they still have enough players).

And that is absurd. B2 and B3 commited no violation. They batted after player listed as the legal batter prior to them in the batting order. Or should you expect them to say, "Oops, you're right, I'll send up the next batter instead so you can appeal the player batting out of order."

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[Dakota]

I've edited my OP - I'd stated the ASA penalty incorrectly. See the blue text for where I made changes.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I've edited my OP - I'd stated the ASA penalty incorrectly. See the blue text for where I made changes.

Ok I'm confused (and that's not hard anymore)...

With the ASA interp:
I see where the unreported sub (FLEX in for B1) is DQ'd and replaced. (4.6.C.4)

But I don't see why you're declaring B1 out.

Who should be the next proper batter after the FLEX illegally bats? B2? Then don't you have BOO per 7.2.D.2 because B1 just batted for B2? B2 is out, remove B1 from 1B, return the FLEX's sub back to 1B and bring B3 up to bat...

Am I right? Or am I missing something? Or was the situation that just the issue with the FLEX was appealed and not the BOO?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SRW

But I don't see why you're declaring B1 out.

Who should be the next proper batter after the FLEX illegally bats? B2? Then don't you have BOO per 7.2.D.2 because B1 just batted for B2? B2 is out, remove B1 from 1B, return the FLEX's sub back to 1B and bring B3 up to bat...

Am I right? Or am I missing something? Or was the situation that just the issue with the FLEX was appealed and not the BOO?

What you're missing is that since FLEX illegally sub'ed for B1, B1 has left the game. B1 then re-entered (unreported, and illegally) for B2. Hence, both FLEX and B1 are illegal subs - FLEX for B1, and B1 for B2. Since the protest was made before a pitch was thrown to the next batter, B1 is declared out and DQ'ed and the runners return (ASA 4-6-C-3).

[JefferMC]

I understand where you're going with this in respect to the literal application of all rules, but I think you're making a rather complicated case and draconian response to what is a rather simple case of in-attention to detail.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

I understand where you're going with this in respect to the literal application of all rules, but I think you're making a rather complicated case and draconian response to what is a rather simple case of in-attention to detail.

It is not complicated at all. It is not unusual to come across coaches or players who treat the FLEX as a 10th batter. And from there, everything is following the rules.

A sub is a sub (legal or illegal), and somebody enters the game and somebody leaves the game. You can't have an illegal sub unless somebody entered and somebody left.

You can't have a player who is not IN the batting order bat OUT of order - she has to enter the game, first.

I actually agree in the NFHS case with the "draconian" label for the ruling. Just show me where it is wrong.

Not for ASA, though. The penalty is very reasonable for the circumstances.

The point in bringing it up (here and on the NFHS board) was to hopefully get an official interpretation that does NOT result in 3 outs and 3 players restricted to the bench (NFHS).

[JefferMC]

The penalty you're prescribing for ASA isn't draconian, but the NFHS one is.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Dakota

It is not complicated at all. It is not unusual to come across coaches or players who treat the FLEX as a 10th batter. And from there, everything is following the rules...

I can't resist saying this: If the FLEX had been listed on the lineup card alongside the DP, then this would never have happened.

This is one of the points of the DP/FLEX rule that causes a tremendous amount of confusion, a pseudo 10th spot, that really doesn't exist.

Life would be much simpler if the two players, who can only bat in a particular spot in the order (i.e. the DP & FLEX), were actually listed in that spot.

* * *

The originator of the post made a point of saying that the DP did not bat in the #1 spot. Would it have really mattered if the DP actually was batting in the #1 spot?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

What you're missing is that since FLEX illegally sub'ed for B1, B1 has left the game. B1 then re-entered (unreported, and illegally) for B2. Hence, both FLEX and B1 are illegal subs - FLEX for B1, and B1 for B2. Since the protest was made before a pitch was thrown to the next batter, B1 is declared out and DQ'ed and the runners return (ASA 4-6-C-3).

You're right, that was what I was missing. That makes sense now. Thanks!

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by SRW

You're right, that was what I was missing. That makes sense now. Thanks!

That's TWO things that make sense. Well, sorta. Kinda.