3rd out on appeal

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA, your mechanic, or lack of one as the case may be, is incorrect.

By rule, the runner who has passed a base is considered to have touched that base for the purpose of the application of the rules. Therefore, by making no call, you are failing to meet your responsibilities as an umpire.

But you do not make a call when there is no defensive play made at that base. I don't call the B/R safe at 1B when he hits a line shot to left field do I?

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

But you do not make a call when there is no defensive play made at that base.

Of course not. And if the runner misses a base you say nothing until properly appealed.

BUT - if you have a play at a base (including home) you must make a call. Right? Either safe or out. So if the runner beats the throw, or the tag is missed your call has to be safe. In fact, by rule the runner is assumed to have touched the base when they pass it, until a proper appeal is made.

You may hesitate a just a bit to see if the players recognize the error and fix it themselves (runner tags base or fielder tags runner) before making the call. But anything more than that, your failure to make a call is sending a signal to the players that something is wrong. And that makes you wrong, because you are not supposed to react to a missed base until an appeal is made.

It is simple. Call the runner safe, and let the players figure it out.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

But you do not make a call when there is no defensive play made at that base. I don't call the B/R safe at 1B when he hits a line shot to left field do I?

I don't know what you are reading, but it certainly isn't the original post of this thread.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't know what you are reading, but it certainly isn't the original post of this thread.

Maybe I'm just seeing things.

I wasn't entirely clean on my points. In the OP, the runner is out. Piece of cake.

If a runner misses the 1B bag and the defensive player tags him, it's not an appeal play because I will not have called him safe. He didn't touch the base, the defensive player realized this, and continued the effort of making the defensive play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Maybe I'm just seeing things.

I wasn't entirely clean on my points. In the OP, the runner is out. Piece of cake.

If a runner misses the 1B bag and the defensive player tags him, it's not an appeal play because I will not have called him safe. He didn't touch the base, the defensive player realized this, and continued the effort of making the defensive play.

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

Too bad that's what I was taught at 3 different clinics this year...

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which, speaking ASA, is incorrect. Once a runner passes a base, they are considered to have touched that base and is ruled safe, by rule. It is a missed base appeal made during a live ball that is considered a subsequent play.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

Again, you don't call him safe if there is no defensive play made (and if you do, please show me the appropriate rules, because I haven't read/noticed it). Just like we've (we've - meaning my association) been taught not to call safe/out if the ball is dropped at 1B by the defender on an attempted defensive play (so long as the defensive player doesn't recover before the B/R gets there, that is). If your UIC/region is teaching something different than what mine is, then the problem does not lie with me, but rather the training.

That's been my entire point of this particular sub-matter. Either you call every runner that passes/touches 1B safe (even if they hit an inside the park HR or an OTF HR), or you don't call anything at all since there has not been a defensive play yet made to either the 1B bag or the batter/runner. I used the example of a line drive to LF for just this purpose (although I may have clouded you guys thoughts because you thought I was referring to the OP).

Am I still confusing you?

[greymule]

If the BR misses 1B, overruns the bag, and doesn't make some sort of move toward 2B, it's obvious that a subsequent tag is an appeal of the miss. (If the BR both misses 1B and makes a turn, then the fielder must be clear about why he is tagging the BR, because the effect on the run scoring is different.) And if a runner misses home, a tag attempt after the runner has passed the plate is also obviously an appeal. This holds both in ASA and in OBR.

It's different at 2B and 3B, where the tag is of the runner simply being off the base unless the fielder clearly makes an appeal. And OBR and ASA treat that play differently. ASA allows an immediate appeal even while the runner is in the vicinity; OBR does not. (In ASA, if the BR missed 1B, overran, and is returning, F3 could appeal by tagging the base. In OBR, F3 would have to tag the BR to appeal.)

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles grounds to F6. Abel scores. F6 throws too late to 2B but Baker has missed 2B and slid beyond it. Now:

1. F4 immediately appeals the miss and tags Baker. ASA: Third out on appeal, run nullified on third-out force play. OBR: No immediate appeal permitted, since Baker is in the vicinity of the base. Therefore, Baker out merely on the tag, and Abel's run counts. No fourth-out appeal permitted, either.

2. F4 merely tags Baker beyond the base. ASA: Three outs. Run scores. No fourth-out appeal allowed on the missed base, since Baker did not score. OBR: Three outs. No fourth-out appeal permitted. Run scores.

ASA does not take what, by some, is consider the baseball stance of a "no call" when a runner does not touch a base.

In baseball, I call the runner safe if he beats the throw but misses 1B. Same at home. That seems to be what the other umps do also. A no-call is an announcement to the entire ballpark that the runner missed the base.

Am I still confusing you?

Yes. Are you saying that you would make a no-call on a BR who beats the throw but misses 1B?

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by greymule

Yes. Are you saying that you would make a no-call on a BR who beats the throw but misses 1B?

Did the defensive player receive the ball and have his/her foot on the bag? If so, then yes, that play would require a call to be made. If no defensive play is made/attempted, how can I call the B/R safe?

Where in the 2007 ASA rulebook does it say that I must call the B/R safe if the B/R beats the ball out to 1B but never touches the bag? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all if I am forced by ASA rule to make an incorrect call, and then upon the ensuing appeal reverse myself even though I knew the initial ruling was incorrect.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

Did the defensive player receive the ball and have his/her foot on the bag? If so, then yes, that play would require a call to be made. If no defensive play is made/attempted, how can I call the B/R safe?

Where in the 2007 ASA rulebook does it say that I must call the B/R safe if the B/R beats the ball out to 1B but never touches the bag? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all if I am forced by ASA rule to make an incorrect call, and then upon the ensuing appeal reverse myself even though I knew the initial ruling was incorrect.

Wow, how arrogant.

If the BR touches the base, you call the BR safe. If the BR misses the base, the BR is considered to have touched it. You hesitate slightly to allow the players to finish the play. If no play is made, you declare the BR safe. If they appeal properly, you call them out. You do it this way so you don't tip off either team that the play may not be over. Also, they're assumed safe until put out. If the proper appeal is not made, the BR is safe.

And where is all this? You're right, it's not in the rulebook. It's in the Umpire Manual. Perhaps the most needed, and least read portion of the entire book.