History Lesson Anyone ?

[Chess Ref]

I am hoping to get a historical context of the two base award "at the time of the pitch."
I am in my third year so my references only go back that far.

I had this Sitch or something very similar happen 3x times this week with 3 different partners.

Runner on 1B. Basehit to RF. Play on Runner @ 3rd Base. Lets assume BR is between 1B &2B by now. Ball is overthrown into dead ball area. I say BR should get 3B.

I have all 3 partners bring out the "at the time of the pitch" card when we have had discussions on where to place the batter runner.

I say BR should get 3B. Am I totally screwing the pooch here ? All 3 partners say no "time of pitch yada yada yada.....

What say you ?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I am hoping to get a historical context of the two base award "at the time of the pitch."
I am in my third year so my references only go back that far.

I had this Sitch or something very similar happen 3x times this week with 3 different partners.

Runner on 1B. Basehit to RF. Play on Runner @ 3rd Base. Lets assume BR is between 1B &2B by now. Ball is overthrown into dead ball area. I say BR should get 3B.

I have all 3 partners bring out the "at the time of the pitch" card when we have had discussions on where to place the batter runner.

I say BR should get 3B. Am I totally screwing the pooch here ? All 3 partners say no "time of pitch yada yada yada.....

What say you ?

On a thrown ball, it is two bases from the time of the throw.

[NCASAUmp]

Pray tell, which rule book are you using? ASA? USSSA? Kinda makes a difference...

[Chess Ref]

Sorry. Using NFHS book. I know the rule but am looking for some background from you old grizzly vets. Like we have had the about to receive change - was there a time of the pitch change in the past ?

Just thought it strange that i heard that 3 times this week. It was starting to get surreal.....

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Sorry. Using NFHS book. I know the rule but am looking for some background from you old grizzly vets. Like we have had the about to receive change - was there a time of the pitch change in the past ?

Just thought it strange that i heard that 3 times this week. It was starting to get surreal.....

In the years that I have umpired, this has been the rule. Prior to that, I cannot tell you if it was different or not.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I am hoping to get a historical context of the two base award "at the time of the pitch." . . . . . . . I have all 3 partners bring out the "at the time of the pitch" card when we have had discussions on where to place the batter runner.

Just how old are your partners?

The original (1932) softball rule for awards on an overthrow was two bases based on time of pitch.

In the mid 40's the rule changed to "one + one" for the runner being played on at 1B, 3B, or home. Other runners received the same award based on their position at TOP.

Ten years later the TOP was dropped and all runners were awarded one+one.

In early 70's the infamous "1st play from infield" came in. Now the award is two bases from TOP. (On a throw from the outfield, or on a subsequent play, the award was two bases from last base touched at Time of Throw.)

Finally - mid 80's - the rule was changed to what you see today: two bases from time the ball leaves the player's hand, or TOT.

Today, the only way your partners can be right is if a batted ball goes out of play, either on its own, or after being deflected off a fielder or runner or umpire. Then the two base award is from TOP.

But not on a throw! Next time you see those guys hand them a rule book. NFHS 8-4.3.f; ASA 8-5.G.

WMB

[CecilOne]

As above, time of throw for at least 20 years in NFHS, ASA, PONY, NCAA SOFTBALL.

However, TOP does apply to a pitch and, as WMB said, a batted ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As above, time of throw for at least 20 years in NFHS, ASA, PONY, NCAA SOFTBALL.

However, TOP does apply to a pitch and, as WMB said, a batted ball.

I note you highlighted "softball." Does OLBR or other "Little Ball" rule books say time of pitch?

[Chess Ref]

WMB
Well 2 of the guys were around when cranks were used to start your car.

Maybe I just had a Stephen King/ Twilight Zone week around TOP.

Appreciate your info WMB and others....

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As above, time of throw for at least 20 years in NFHS, ASA, PONY, NCAA SOFTBALL.

However, TOP does apply to a pitch and, as WMB said, a batted ball.

I do believe, however, NSA in FP and Mod still awards from the time of the pitch.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I do believe, however, NSA in FP and Mod still awards from the time of the pitch.

So, if R1 takes off from 1B on a line drive to the OF, rounds 2B when F8 throws the ball toward the IF, skips past F6 so R1 is nearly to 3B when it bounces of F1's shin, past F3 and into DBT as R1 scores, the rule puts the runner back to 3B? Okay, that's a good one.

[tcblue13]

I looked it up and it is a both and situatuation. On the first throw from the infield, the award is from the base occupied at TOP but on subsequent plays and throws from the OF it is TOT. If I insensed anyone's lack of sensibilities, I apologize.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I looked it up and it is a both and situatuation. On the first throw from the infield, the award is from the base occupied at TOP but on subsequent plays and throws from the OF it is TOT. If I insensed anyone's lack of sensibilities, I apologize.

R1 off with the pitch attempting to steal 2B. Ground ball to F6 who checks 2B, but runner is already there, then hurries throw to 1B only put it in the dirt. R1 headed to 3B on F6's throw the is in the dirt and caroms off of F3's shin and into DBT as R1 is rounding 3B.

And this is not a TWP. Still doesn't make sense to me, but then again, I don't have to deal with it.