ASA Rules Question From Prospective Ump

[Frank Lemon]

Hi all, glad I found this forum, there is so much info here it's unreal. I've played hardball and softball all my life and have decided to attempt to make the jump to officiating. I have just started my umpiring class run by my local ASA and am having trouble finding the applicable rule relating to the following true/false question:

"A forced runner that touches the next base and retreats toward the base they last occupied must be tagged in order to be put out" t/f

I'm fairly confident that the runner would have to be tagged, but I can't find the specific rule to reference. I am looking at the 2006 ASA rulebook. Thanks in advance for any help.

Frank.

[greymule]

When the runner retreats toward the base last occupied, the force is reinstated and the runner does not have to be tagged. You will find this under the definition of "force out." In ASA, this is interpreted to include a runner who touches 1B and retreats toward home plate.*

*You should know that OBR does not include the BR retreating toward home plate after touching 1B. In OBR, the runner is not considered "forced" and did not "occupy" home plate; therefore, he must be tagged.

[BretMan]

I believe that you will find your answer under the Rule 1 definition of a "Force Out".

(Which greymule beat me to posting by a mere four minutes!)

[Frank Lemon]

uh oh. Don't know how I missed that, thanks for your help. I've got much to learn.

Frank.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Frank Lemon

I've much to learn.

That is the way it always is with umpiring!!!!

By the way, welcome to the board Frank.

[CLBuffalo]

Just curious. In 22 years with ASA I've never had to call this. Has anyone else?

[greymule]

I remember calling it once, after the BR touched 1B but saw F10 under his pop in short RF. He retreated back down the 1B line, but F10 dropped the ball. The BR tried to make it to 1B, but the throw beat him.

I can't remember having that call any other time.

It's most likely to happen on a play like this:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a liner to short RF. Abel runs and touches 2B as F10 dives for the ball but traps it. Abel thinks F10 caught the ball and starts to return to 1B. F10 throws to F6 at 2B for the force out on Abel, even though Abel had touched 2B.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by greymule

I remember calling it once, after the BR touched 1B but saw F10 under his pop in short RF. He retreated back down the 1B line, but F10 dropped the ball. The BR tried to make it to 1B, but the throw beat him.

I can't remember having that call any other time.

It's most likely to happen on a play like this:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a liner to short RF. Abel runs and touches 2B as F10 dives for the ball but traps it. Abel thinks F10 caught the ball and starts to return to 1B. F10 throws to F6 at 2B for the force out on Abel, even though Abel had touched 2B.

The only time I've called it was in a tourney. R1 was stealing on a pop to right. She was past the normal F6 position when coach started yelling, "Back, back!!!" She almost made it to first when the ball ended up not being caught. She was thrown out rather easily at 2nd. It took the coach about 15 seconds to come out to argue - apparently they discussed it in the dugout before realizing they thought they had a beef. Protested the call and everything, delayed the whole rest of the day as the TD didn't know where to find that ruling, and no one (other than me) was satisfied with just the definition under "Force Play". Took a phone call and about a half hour to sort out.

[greymule]

Here's a related play. How would you call it?

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 2 outs. Charles lines a hit to right field. Abel scores. As F4 takes the throw from F10, Baker stops on 2B, Charles stops on 1B. As F4 is walking the ball in, Baker, wrongly assuming time is out since play appears to be stopped, goes back toward 1B to retrieve his hat. F4 tags Baker, and since time wasn't called, you call Baker out for the third out.

Does Abel's run count?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by greymule

When the runner retreats toward the base last occupied, the force is reinstated and the runner does not have to be tagged. You will find this under the definition of "force out." In ASA, this is interpreted to include a runner who touches 1B and retreats toward home plate.*

*You should know that OBR does not include the BR retreating toward home plate after touching 1B. In OBR, the runner is not considered "forced" and did not "occupy" home plate; therefore, he must be tagged.

Ummmm, Frank is taking the ASA test. Therefore it is incorrect to explain that a force is reinstated. The runner can be tagged or the base can be tagged as a proper appeal that the runner did not touch the base. If the test question asked if the runner forced out by stepping on the base, the answer would be False.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Ummmm, Frank is taking the ASA test. Therefore it is incorrect to explain that a force is reinstated. The runner can be tagged or the base can be tagged as a proper appeal that the runner did not touch the base. If the test question asked if the runner forced out by stepping on the base, the answer would be False.

Which is to say that, as an appeal out, the run is not negated.

[wadeintothem]

Welcome to the forum!

[greymule]

Ummmm, Frank is taking the ASA test. Therefore it is incorrect to explain that a force is reinstated. The runner can be tagged or the base can be tagged as a proper appeal that the runner did not touch the base. If the test question asked if the runner forced out by stepping on the base, the answer would be False.

The question is number 2.

True or false. "A forced runner that touches the next base and retreats toward the base they last occupied must be tagged in order to be put out."

This is False. The fielder can simply step on the base. This is in no way a missed base appeal. It is a reinstated force. No appeal to the umpire is necessary.

If you're talking about the play I gave, that's also a reinstated force. But even if it were an appeal for the third out, the run would still not count, since the third out was a force play. (Appeal for advantageous fourth out would be something different in ASA, since the appealed runner did not score.) The only question in my scenario would involve whether the force out would be considered a separate play that occurred after the play in which the run scored. I don't think it would be, since ASA does not recognize breaks in continuous action.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Ummmm, Frank is taking the ASA test. Therefore it is incorrect to explain that a force is reinstated. The runner can be tagged or the base can be tagged as a proper appeal that the runner did not touch the base. If the test question asked if the runner forced out by stepping on the base, the answer would be False.

Talk about screwing up a simple question and answer.......

The question asked was extremely specific. A runner retreating from a base to which they were forced does not have to be tagged to be retired by the defense. Therefore, the answer to the question IS false.

Of course, it doesn't help to interject another rule set (OBR) to a rule-set specific question.