Redo on missed call

[CLBuffalo]

Showcase tournament. ASA rules. All teams are 18U. Number of outs doesn't matter. Runner on 3rd. Pitcher starts delivery (separates hands, arm goes back and then forward, stops and does not release the ball). Illegal pitch immediately called. Ball on the batter. Pitcher then throws a legal pitch to the batter. After the pitch the umpire realizes that the runner on 3rd should have come home. Umpire negates the pitch and has the runner come home. Defensive coach is not happy but doesn't go ballistic. Umpire's apparent reasoning is that the call can be corrected and the appeal process doesn't apply, that is, the runner coming home is not an appeal play that was lost after the next pitch.

Please folks, I'm looking for reasoned opinions why this was or was not the right thing to do. The umpire is a good umpire and made a decision, good or bad. The UIC was not called (remember this was a showcase tournament, drop dead times, no winners or losers, no trophies, etc.) and I don't think this was ever brought to his attention. If I ever get in that situation I'd like to know what the right thing to do is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Once there is a play, including a pitch, an umpire cannot correct an error on awarded bases. Though not covered directly as to an IP, it is covered under the POE on awarded bases on overthrows, so I could understand using this as a reference.

[LIIRISHMAN]

Sounds to me like a legitamate mistake by the Umpire. On the other hand it could open the door for a Protest by the defensive coach. Any one have a opinion if this Protest is filed would it be upheld?

[DaveASA/FED]

I see where Mike is going with this about the awarded bases after a pitch. But what about correcting an error made by an umpire that put someone in jeopardy? The umpire should have awarded home to the player on 3rd, which makes her score and enter the dugout. By not properly awarding her home she is standing on third having the ability to be played upon and put out. Is this correctible following the pitch? Or is it a done deal once the pitch is started?

[Dakota]

When appeals can or cannot be made has no bearing on this. This is an umpire correcting his call. There are different "deadlines" (if you will) by which a correction must happen; after that, it is too late.

In the situation you presented, it was too late, since a pitch had been thrown.

I can see the umpire doing what this one did in an informally officiated game, because even though the next pitch has been thrown, no action has occurred that would make it impossible to correct the umpire's error. If I would have done something like this, however, (that is, do the wrong thing for the right reason), I would not have made it a complete "do-over." IOW, the result of the pitch would have stood. I'd have just sent the runner home. But, that is just an opinion of the best way to do it wrong!

[John Robertson]

Kind of a tough break for the team at bat, but you have to wonder about the alertness of the coaching staff of the offensive team. Someone on that team ought to know that baserunners advance one base on an illegal pitch. Sure, the umpire goofed, but the offensive team allowed it to happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Remember, this isn't like the umpire denied the runner the advance, it just didn't happen. All parties, ALL parties missed this.

[Andy]

Confession time.......I've done this!

I was BU, my fourth game of the day, it was hot, game was not very exciting, etc. Not making excuses, but those were the circumstances.

R1 on second, defense replaces F1. She takes her warmup throws and we resume the game. First pitch - BIG leap off of the pitchers plate, I call the illegal pitch, but forget to send the runner to third. Next pitch, another BIG leap off of the pitchers plate, I call another illegal pitch and STILL forget to advance the runner. F1 makes another pitch, legal this time, and it starts to dawn on me that something isn't quite right. I see R1, still on second, and call time. I send R1 to third, tell my partner that we (I) forgot to advance the runner on the illegal pitch, and tell the defensive coach the same thing. Def coach agrees and we resume play. The offensive coach never says a word this whole time.

So, I think I screwed this one up every which way from Sunday!!!!!

[greymule]

Generally, once a pitch is thrown, you can't move runners around. But if a runner had legally scored and then I noticed after a pitch that she had for some reason returned to 3B, I would take her off the base and count the run. Or if I saw that the offense had switched runners, that would be different.

However, what would you do here?:

Bottom of second inning, no score.

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles hits a long drive to right center and both runners take off. Abel assumes it's a hit, keeps running, and crosses the plate. Baker is around 2B and on her way to 3B when F9 makes a great catch. F9 throws to 1B to retire Baker on appeal. The defense leaves the field congratulating F9 on her great play.

Forgetting that to nullify Abel's run, the defense would have to appeal for an advantageous fourth out, you allow the game to proceed scoreless. However, in the bottom of the seventh, with the score still 0-0, the home coach comes out and says, "Hey Blue, one of our fans tells me that by rule, our girl who crossed home plate in the second inning should have counted. It's a time play, and there was no appeal on her for leaving 3B too soon."

You say . . .

[bigsig]

That's why I've learned to always confirm runs scored with each coach every half inning! (And I write them down)
But to answer your question now, I would tell the coach that he should have raised that issue before the 3rd inning started. The score is 0-0, play ball!

[CecilOne]

Even though there are limits on most things, it is never too late to correct the score.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

Bottom of second inning, no score.

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles hits a long drive to right center and both runners take off. Abel assumes it's a hit, keeps running, and crosses the plate. Baker is around 2B and on her way to 3B when F9 makes a great catch. F9 throws to 1B to retire Baker on appeal. The defense leaves the field congratulating F9 on her great play.

Forgetting that to nullify Abel's run, the defense would have to appeal for an advantageous fourth out, you allow the game to proceed scoreless.

No, that is incorrect. Abel legally scored assuming she crossed the plate prior to the live ball appeal at 1B (from the OP, that is a logical assumption). That run counts whether the umpire verifies it or not.

However, in the bottom of the seventh, with the score still 0-0, (no, it's 1-0) the home coach comes out and says, "Hey Blue, one of our fans tells me that by rule, our girl who crossed home plate in the second inning should have counted. It's a time play, and there was no appeal on her for leaving 3B too soon."

And the coach would be correct, though I would probably snicker at the point a fan had to tell him that.

You say . . .

Sure did coach. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by greymule

Generally, once a pitch is thrown, you can't move runners around. But if a runner had legally scored and then I noticed after a pitch that she had for some reason returned to 3B, I would take her off the base and count the run. Or if I saw that the offense had switched runners, that would be different.

However, what would you do here?:

Bottom of second inning, no score.

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles hits a long drive to right center and both runners take off. Abel assumes it's a hit, keeps running, and crosses the plate. Baker is around 2B and on her way to 3B when F9 makes a great catch. F9 throws to 1B to retire Baker on appeal. The defense leaves the field congratulating F9 on her great play.

Forgetting that to nullify Abel's run, the defense would have to appeal for an advantageous fourth out, you allow the game to proceed scoreless. However, in the bottom of the seventh, with the score still 0-0, the home coach comes out and says, "Hey Blue, one of our fans tells me that by rule, our girl who crossed home plate in the second inning should have counted. It's a time play, and there was no appeal on her for leaving 3B too soon."

You say . . .

What you have described is a scorekeeping error, not a call on the field error (unless, of course, the umpire actually informed the scorekeeper that the run does not count).

Correct the scorebook and proceed.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by CLBuffalo

Showcase tournament... If I ever get in that situation I'd like to know what the right thing to do is.

Strictly by rule, I agree with others that once the next pitch is thrown no bases can be awarded.

Realistically, I have no problems with what was done in this "showcase" situation after only one other pitch.

Originally Posted by greymule

You say . . .

"Coach, that was five innings ago and I'm the kind of quy that can't even remember where I put my car keys. What does the official book have?"

[bigsig]

Go to the book. If it's got 0-0 as you have indicated, that's the score. If, after both teams have played 4 more innings thinking the score is tied, the ump anounces in the bottom of the 7th that the game is over and the home team wins, good luck getting home!