ASA game situation

[RonA]

OK, Here's the situation. ASA game, Men's tourn, E league (not relevant to situation, I don't think)Long fly ball, obvious foul. As plate ump, I call foul ball. However, ball is caught in area of play by rf (in foul territory) who then slides into out of play area. I rule that since ball was caught, in appropriate foul territory and that momentum of player was what carried him out of play, batter is out.

My question is about order of occurence. Should I have waited before declaring the FB, and did doing so make the catch of the foul ball a moot point?

BTW, game was in last inning, run rule in effect, last out, neither team really playing seriously. (not that it made any difference in my decision process)

Ron

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RonA

Should I have waited before declaring the FB,

Yes. You should wait until the ball actually IS a foul ball.

Originally Posted by RonA

and did doing so make the catch of the foul ball a moot point?

No, but you will end up with a real brouhaha on your hands eventually if you get into the habit of calling FOUL too early. A fly ball is never a foul ball. It has to hit something first (ground, player, etc.)

PS: Welcome to the board!

[Steve M]

RonA,
Let me second what Tom said.....
Welcome
Calling a ball foul or dead or anything else too soon will eventually cause lots of hassle. Remeber that it's nothing 'til you call it - and the players will appreciate that you don't have to change a call because you didn't wait to see the whole thing. Good timing - and that's a lot of what we're talking about here - will save you from having to make the dreaded "Out, Sh*t, Safe" call in a different situation.

[Andy]

Declaring a batted ball foul before it is actually foul is something that I have noticed a lot of umpires doing lately.

In most cases, it's not going to hurt anything, but it is a bad habit to get into and it will eventually jump up and bite you in the butt.

I was working a game earlier this year as the BU, batter squared to bunt, bunted the ball down the first base line, ball is still moving and spinning just outside the line and the PU yells out "FOUL BALL". Neither coach said anything and play went on, but I just cringed to myself when that happened.

I always tell new umpires to get in the habit of waiting to call the ball foul, just like we do when we call a strike or ball, out or safe. It's not hard to do and it can save you some grief.

[mcrowder]

I echo what you've been told here.. and add that when the ball was caught, there is no longer a need to declare it fair or foul. All you have now is a caught fly ball. (Also note that since he left playable territory, had this not been the last out, you now have a base award situation, as the ball has been carried into dead ball territory).

[RonA]

(Also note that since he left playable territory, had this not been the last out, you now have a base award situation, as the ball has been carried into dead ball territory).

Yes I have had those other situations on the bunt and the ball sent down the baselines before, and I learned VERRRRY quickly (after getting yelled at) about those situations. But, that long fly ball sort of had me puzzled.

As to the possible base award situation, wouldn't it have been just a runners advance at their own risk thing though, because it was just a fly ball?

[Steve M]

Ron,
You asked - "As to the possible base award situation, wouldn't it have been just a runners advance at their own risk thing though, because it was just a fly ball?"
Not in your play. After the fielder caught the ball, the fielder carried the ball into dead ball territory. What risk is there to the runner(s) since the ball is now dead? But, you've got to do something with each runner, right? They get an award.

[DaveASA/FED]

ok, not to steal the thread, but you all went there....the award would be one base if it was ruled unintentional due to momentum, and two bases if it was ruled intentional? Trying to remember now, been away from softball for too long already.....not good!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RonA

Yes I have had those other situations on the bunt and the ball sent down the baselines before, and I learned VERRRRY quickly (after getting yelled at) about those situations. But, that long fly ball sort of had me puzzled.

As to the possible base award situation, wouldn't it have been just a runners advance at their own risk thing though, because it was just a fly ball?

It was just a fly ball, no different from any other fly ball, except that you must pay attention to where it is (over fair or foul territory). You were correct in your priorities - you need to determine fair or foul first, but you were incorrect in actually verbalizing the FOUL before the ball was touched, dropped, or caught.

Assume for the moment your fielder had not carried the ball out of play, and this was not the third out...

Once the ball was caught, it was merely a caught fly ball, with all baserunning rules that would apply to any other caught fly ball. The runners could advance at their own risk. If they did not tag up, they would be in jeopardy of being ruled out on appeal, just as with any other caught fly ball.

If it had been dropped, it would be just a foul ball. That is why you need to place your first priority as determining fair or foul (where was the ball when first touched) rather than catch or no catch. Once the ball is dropped, it is too late for you to see where it was when first touched.