Illegal Pitch

[clevbrown]

I have been learning from this web site for about a year and have been umpiring for 2 years. So, I am fairly new at this and eager to learn.

When describing a legal pitch, ASA 6.1.E states "The Pitcher shall bring the hands together for not less than 1 second and not more than 10 seconds before releasing it".

I have seen several 10U and 12U pitchers who step on the runner with their hands seperated and the ball in the throwing hand (this is legal so far), then after taking the sign they move both hands forward and bring them together out in front of their body and touch them together and in 1 continual motion (no pause) they seperate the hands and bring the ball hand back behind their body, then they go into the wind mill like normal.

This seems to be a blatent illegal pitch since they did not bring their hands together for a minimum of 1 second, all they did was touch and then seperate. However, I have asked 3 ASA umpires (including 1 at the Indiana State Games in Bloomington) and all 3 say this is legal as long as they touch their hands together. They say they do not have to pause for 1 second.

I would love to hear if I am crazy or should this be indeed an illegal pitch?

[Dakota]

By the literal reading of the rule, (speaking ASA) the so-called "touch and go" is illegal, but by common interpretation and practice, it is allowed. Note, though, that even if the 1 second was literally enforced, a "pause" would not be required. The hands may be in continuous motion once the "signs" have been taken.

ISF, to indicated I suppose that they are serious about the touch and go being illegal, says the hands have to be together for a minimum of 2 seconds.

[Dakota]

BTW, welcome to the board.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

By the literal reading of the rule, (speaking ASA) the so-called "touch and go" is illegal, but by common interpretation and practice, it is allowed. Note, though, that even if the 1 second was literally enforced, a "pause" would not be required. The hands may be in continuous motion once the "signs" have been taken.

ISF, to indicated I suppose that they are serious about the touch and go being illegal, says the hands have to be together for a minimum of 2 seconds.

As far as I know, the quick touch is generally treated as 1 second in all sanctions (even LL ?), except ISF.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As far as I know, the quick touch is generally treated as 1 second in all sanctions (even LL ?), except ISF.

Yes, even LL . . .

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Yes, even LL . . .

One of my pet peeves is when a coach says she has to "present" the ball.

[Antonella]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ISF, to indicated I suppose that they are serious about the touch and go being illegal, says the hands have to be together for a minimum of 2 seconds.

ISF is on the way to get fastpitch softball as much as 'broadcastable' as possible. Tv and fans attention come especially when you have a 8-7 game instead of a 1-0 game played almost by pitchers...
That's the INTENT of the rule: give less advantage to pitchers.
And I agree it's a great rule when you deal with good pitchers.
The higher the level is, the most umpires should enforce this rule.
Because the 'touch and go' movement give a serious advantage, because of the (accidenti, non so bene how to say it in english!!) FLOWING, because of the cinetics... Sorry, I am not able to explain that...
In Italian league umpires have often something to explaying to pitchers from abroad (especially from USA and Australia) in the beginning of the season... But after a while they get used to ISF rules.

Ciao

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by clevbrown

I have seen several 10U and 12U pitchers who step on the runner

I think it is an IP if you step on the runner while pitching

[clevbrown]

Oops that was suppose to be "rubber" not "runner".

I find it very interesting that typically you all are a very "by the book" group and go by the letter of the rule book whether you agree with the rule or not. However, with this rule the concensus is to over look what appears to me to be one of the most descriptive rules in the entire ASA manual. There can be little confusion what is meant by "not less than 1 second and not more than 10 seconds", yet the consensus is to consider a touch ok. This is not a critisism, but just an observation.
Thanks for your feedback, it is now clear why I have never seen this called in a game.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by clevbrown

I find it very interesting that typically you all are a very "by the book" group and go by the letter of the rule book whether you agree with the rule or not.

Actually, we do not go by the letter of the rule. We learn how to call the game from clinics, and by talking with other umpires in the parking lot, or on these forums. We learn by experience from watching and calling hundreds of games over several years.

What we learn is how to call a game to keep it flowing, running smoothly without ether side gaining an advantage over the other. We are more concerned about the intent of the rule rather that the strict Webster definition of the words.

The problem comes when coaches (dads, players, etc.) pick up a rulebook and read a single sentence and discover that umpires are not calling the game by the rules.

Our issue is to find a balance between overly technical about every little variance, and not calling obvious violations that allow an advantage to one team.

What you see on these boards is umpires trading these experiences and learning from each other, and changing to adapt to a common understanding of how to call the game.

WMB

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

One of my pet peeves is when a coach says she has to "present" the ball.

I hate that one too.. I recently had a new coach claim that. It wouldnt have been so bad except she had been an awesome HS/Travel ball pitcher who I umpired.. and she sure as heck never presented the ball. In fact neither did her sister laster year who was Var pitcher and neither does her youger sister who is a 12U pitcher, all of whom I've umpired.

For the OP, the intent of the rule is not to have us gauge "1 second", it's to set a period in time when the pitch is begining and and I have no prob with a "touch and go".

ISF has taken it to an extreme IMO requiring "two seconds" which clearly indicates holding the hands together for a period of time beyond touch and go.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Actually, we do not go by the letter of the rule. We learn how to call the game from clinics, and by talking with other umpires in the parking lot, or on these forums. We learn by experience from watching and calling hundreds of games over several years.

What we learn is how to call a game to keep it flowing, running smoothly without ether side gaining an advantage over the other. We are more concerned about the intent of the rule rather that the strict Webster definition of the words.

The problem comes when coaches (dads, players, etc.) pick up a rulebook and read a single sentence and discover that umpires are not calling the game by the rules.

Our issue is to find a balance between overly technical about every little variance, and not calling obvious violations that allow an advantage to one team.

What you see on these boards is umpires trading these experiences and learning from each other, and changing to adapt to a common understanding of how to call the game.

WMB

Would you consider teaching lawyers and legislators?

Or maybe test writers?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Actually, we do not go by the letter of the rule. We learn how to call the game from clinics, and by talking with other umpires in the parking lot, or on these forums. We learn by experience from watching and calling hundreds of games over several years.

What we learn is how to call a game to keep it flowing, running smoothly without ether side gaining an advantage over the other. We are more concerned about the intent of the rule rather that the strict Webster definition of the words.

The problem comes when coaches (dads, players, etc.) pick up a rulebook and read a single sentence and discover that umpires are not calling the game by the rules.

Our issue is to find a balance between overly technical about every little variance, and not calling obvious violations that allow an advantage to one team.

What you see on these boards is umpires trading these experiences and learning from each other, and changing to adapt to a common understanding of how to call the game.

WMB

clevbrown,

To WMB's comments I would also add official interpretations. We get these from training (which he mentioned), the POE's in the back of the umpire's rule book, from the case book, and from official clarifications and interpretations issued by the sanctioning organization between rule book publication dates.

As to your original question, the recognition of "touch and go" as a vaild interpretation of the "1 sec" minimum has been around in ASA for many years.

I have no opinion on whether the "2 sec" rule in ISF is better, worse, silly, smart, good for the game, bad for the game, or a big "don't care", but one thing seems clear - ISF does not recognize "touch and go" as legal whereas ASA does.