Another Obstruction play...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As PU, I'm watching the BR until I know the PU has a good angle, unless I'm occupied with a ball hit to left or lead runners.

Wow, you have enough umpires to assign two guys to the plate on each game? I'm impressed

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Wow, you have enough umpires to assign two guys to the plate on each game? I'm impressed

One for balls/strikes, one for runners and checking bats. The question is whether there is also any BU.

[LIIRISHMAN]

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

Alright, I do not know U-Trip rules, but it seems to me that you are applying the ASA standard (where would runner end up without obstruction happening) to the U-Trip game which appears to actually penalize a team for commiting the "foul" of obstruction. I'd say, call it and call it and call it - every time. If you enforce enough calls of actually advancing the runner a base because of the infraction by the defense, they might just wise up and stop committing obstruction.

ASA ball and every other sanctioning body I work - if I see obstruction, the arm goes out.

[bellnier]

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field. So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bellnier

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field. So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

Speaking ASA, the judgment the umpire has to make is a parallel-universe question...

Suppose the obstruction had not happened. What base would the runner have achieved?

The answer to that question is the base to which the umpire protects the runner, and is the base the umpire will award the runner at the end of the play (if necessary).

Also, the runner is protected by rule between the two bases where the obstruction occurred. So, in the scenario presented, the runner is also protected between 1B and 2B.

But, if put out between those bases, the awarded base is the answer to the first question (in this case, 1B).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bellnier

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field.

That cramp is more than slight. I think "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3" can easily be read by Stevie Wonder as obvious OBS.

So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

The umpire should protect the OBS runner to whatever base s/he believed that runner would have reached safely had the OBS not occurred. It is pure umpire judgment. There is no locked-in formula for ruling on OBS.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That cramp is more than slight. I think "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3" can easily be read by Stevie Wonder as obvious OBS.

Mike,
You might be too hard on him. It really wasn't clear in the OP whether the BU though F3 impeded progress to 1st or just getting around 1st toward 2nd. His question was about whether the BR was awarded 1ts because of being impeded before 1st or becaue the ump judged that the try for 2nd was only because of the OBS call.

[wadeintothem]

There are some HTBT aspects to it, and im not questioning this obs call.. but for the sake of discussion

Softball players are taught to take 1B wide when rounding the base.. and in practice set up cones (or balls or mits) at locations to teach this wide rounding. Proper base running at 1B is rounding it wide.

The HTBT part stevie wouldnt see is if the runner was obstructed by F1.. or the runner was just rounding base... (or if their was that cute little orange base in play HOW that could be obs... being on the inside corner.)

A runner rounding a base wide (even with a player using up the inside corner) is not automatically OBS. The judgement part would be if there was OBS because of that.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners.

[Steve M]

Andy,
While I understand this approach - "This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners." I don't like it or agree with it. I had the same obstruction in some of my games - after it was known that obstruction was being called, a lot of the obstruction went away. Put a real penaly in for committing this infraction - and that's not just removing the effect of the infraction - call it, enforce it, and the penalty will start to disappear.

The folks who would not enforce that penalty in Fed ball in past years are the same ones who (then & today) don't attend clinics, don't learn & study the rules, and are just there for a quick pay check. They did the game a dis-service - and these are the folks who ought to P-i-ss every umpire off.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

This is why I do not care for the train of thought that you need to penalize the defense.

That's not your concern. You are getting paid to work a game under a particular set of rule. If you are working under a set of punitive rules, you apply the rule as directed.

If you have a problem with the rule, then you probably shouldn't work u-trip.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

The rest of the story!

Correct for USSSA Slo-Pitch ONLY.

Obstruction rule in USSSA FP is identical to ASA/NFHS. "The base they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction."

WMB