"Over the batter's head"?!

[aceholleran]

Glad to see a softball board here.

Maybe some of youze slo-pitch people can help here. The only softball I do is LL (all levels), whose rules are essentially those of fastpitch, I believe.

Sitch: I've got the dish. Less than two strikes. B1 attempts bunt. The rock strikes her bat and arcs about a foot into the air, then settles pleasantly in F2's (she's in foul territory, as if it matters) mitt. I wait my beat and call B1 out.

Manager of offense gets his shorts in a knot and relates his disapproval to me. He then starts with [and here's where I need your help] this, "It's gotta go over her head" horsesh&t. Now, this rule exists nowhere in LL, trust me.

I explain to him it's either a foul tip or a fly out, and I chose the latter. QED. I tried to keep him in the game, just because he was so earnest, even when he gave me old "Show it to me in the rulebook," to which I replied with my standard, "Nope. You show me." No EJ resulted.

After the game (of course, the complainer won), he approached me again, in kindly fashion. I said, "Found the rule yet?" He laughed. I at least showed him how the play could NOT be considered a foul tip.

Now, is this over-the-head palaver an existing or archaic rule in slo-pitch? This is, obviously, only for my own edification.

Ace Holleran

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

Now, is this over-the-head palaver an existing or archaic rule in slo-pitch? This is, obviously, only for my own edification.

Ace Holleran

There was, until recently, an inclusion in the "foul tip" definition that the ball must be "not higher than the batter's head". That meant that a ball higher than the batter's head could not be a foul tip, but wasn't intended to mean that a ball lower than the batter's head couldn't be a foul ball, caught for an out. This was for all versions of softball (fasy, slow, modified).

This past year, both NFHS and ASA have removed that language with the same explanation; it was unnecessary, and previously misinterpreted. Ball sharply and directly to the mitt; foul tip. Ball not directly to the mitt (has an arc, or mitt moves to the ball), caught foul ball.

[Mountaineer]

You made the right call from my perspective . . .

[NDblue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

This past year, both NFHS and ASA have removed that language with the same explanation; it was unnecessary, and previously misinterpreted. Ball sharply and directly to the mitt; foul tip. Ball not directly to the mitt (has an arc, or mitt moves to the ball), caught foul ball.

And in both situations, batter out!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by NDblue

And in both situations, batter out!

Which "both"?

A foul tip is only an out if strike three.

[aceholleran]

Count was less than two strikes--otherwise batter is out for foul bunt.

BTW, "mitt moves to ball" can certainly be a foul tip, in LL anyway.

tah

[NDblue]

Foul tip directly into the catchers mitt is an "out" according to our state and regional UIC. This is ASA of course and why wouldn't it be an out? Batter swings, makes contact with the ball and it's caught before touching the ground. Why wouldn't that be an out no matter what the count is?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Foul tip directly into the catchers mitt is an "out" according to our state and regional UIC. This is ASA of course and why wouldn't it be an out? Batter swings, makes contact with the ball and it's caught before touching the ground. Why wouldn't that be an out no matter what the count is?

Speaking ASA,
If it goes sharply and directly to the mitt (and the mitt doesn't move) it's just a foul tip. Batter out only if it is strike 3.

Why? Because the ASA rule book says so.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Foul tip directly into the catchers mitt is an "out" according to our state and regional UIC. This is ASA of course and why wouldn't it be an out? Batter swings, makes contact with the ball and it's caught before touching the ground. Why wouldn't that be an out no matter what the count is?

A "foul tip" cannot be an out unless the batter has two strikes at the TOP.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Foul tip directly into the catchers mitt is an "out" according to our state and regional UIC.

Really? Walt Stack says this? A bit hard to believe.

Originally Posted by NDblue

This is ASA of course and why wouldn't it be an out? Batter swings, makes contact with the ball and it's caught before touching the ground. Why wouldn't that be an out no matter what the count is?

Why? Because the rule says it is a strike and a live ball, so it is not an out unless it is strike 3. ASA Rule 7-4-D.

[Dakota]

Well, that was quick!

[NDblue]

When I get back from vacation, I'll get more into this...

[bkbjones]

From the April 2006 Clarifications/Plays page at www.softball.org/umpires/index.asp

Starting this season, 2006, the reference of the

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by NDblue

When I get back from vacation, I'll get more into this...

How much more can you get into? It's pretty clear and I believe it's the same in all rulesets.

[NDblue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Because the rule says it is a strike and a live ball, so it is not an out unless it is strike 3. ASA Rule 7-4-D.

Well, it's not a live ball in SP w/o stealing and I will bring this up to our state UIC who can bring it up to our regional UIC. Don't shoot the messenger here, I'm just repeating what I was told by people that are supposed to be in the know. I still think it should be an out no matter what the count is.