2 umpire mechanics

[Dakota]

NFHS varsity contest. Two very good teams.

R1 on 2B. Batter hits a hard infield grounder. F6 fields it. R1 running toward 3rd. F6 decides to throw to attempt to get R1 instead of taking BR at 1st. R1 does not slide, runs to the outfield side of F5, who takes the throw and attempts a swipe tag about 1-2 feet from the bag. BU has moved with the play toward 3B; is about 10-12' from 3B on the outfield side at the time of the play. Actual tag is hidden from BU by R1. BU calls safe. DC wants to discuss call. BU conferences with PU. PU says he did not see it, he was watching BR to first.

Please critique the mechanics of both.

[CecilOne]

Ignoring the possibility that R1 was >3' off base line avoiding tag.
1) PU needs caffeine.
2) One specific missing - was F6 inside or outside the base line when fielding/throwing.
3) Looks like the BU was outside the base line if blocked by R1 who was outfield side of F5 - ok if F6 was inside, or if too quick to be elsewhere.

Obviously, BU would be better off closer to 3rd to get a better angle, might have been too deep if swipe tag was inside R1 and outside base line.

4) BU would have been inside if moving past F6 to see play at 1st; then turning to follow the ball. Like to think I would be and certainly would have preferred, but w/o knowing more about F6 depth, number of outs, hard to say.

Is that a start?

[Chess Ref]

CecilOne- it seems you said that you would get inside of F6 . Wow-I have been waiting behind the infielder and then busting butt to make the call. In my little ole pea brain it just seems that I don't want to get in front of F6,in this case, or risk becoming part of the play. i am definetly open to being admonished and corrected on this ine of thinking I have.....

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

CecilOne- it seems you said that you would get inside of F6 . Wow-I have been waiting behind the infielder and then busting butt to make the call. In my little ole pea brain it just seems that I don't want to get in front of F6,in this case, or risk becoming part of the play. i am definetly open to being admonished and corrected on this ine of thinking I have.....

I am not going to admonish or correct for followingthe norm. I will correct that I did not say in front of F6, not anywhere that might interfere with play or not see what the fielder would do. I meant going to the side of the play, moving toward 1st, especially with 2 outs. Also, I position closer to 2nd in C than most, again especially with 2 outs. Yes, we must wait behond the fielder in B or C, to be sure of not being in the way, until the path and distance of the batted ball is obvious.

[Dakota]

Additional info.

No outs.
F6 fielded the ball and made the throw inside the baselines - in the infield.

Very good teams, play developed very fast.

BU was outside the baseline, and R1 remained upright between BU and F5, who came off the base a couple of steps for the throw and tag attempt.

IMO, BU should have been closer to 3B, but the play was too fast to get there. May have been positioned too far away to being with. BU was not moving with R1, but expected a play at 1B.

I was BU - critique - I can take it. I was astonished at my partner's answer, though. Any comments there? (We had not worked together before.)

[MNBlue]

Tom,

With a runner on second, I am about 15-20' towards third, and at least 5 feet behind F6. I'm sure I would have been anticipating a play at first as well and as F6 fielded the ball, I would have stepped in towards first, hopefully keeping an eye on the ball.

With my partner understanding (pre-game) that he would have the call at third on a throw from F3 to F5 if R1 is approaching third (PU would have the 90 degree angle) and I would have the call at third if R1 has rounded third and is returning, I would expect my partner to make the call at third, even though it was the first play. I would have a look from behind R1 should my partner need help.

In your situation, I'm guessing that I would be on the baseline looking at the play from behind, and when I realized that the throw went to third, I would attempt to back up and get a better look at what is happening behind the base, expecting my partner to be able to help on 'stuff' that happens in front of the base.

I'm certain your post game included keeping your eye on the ball.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Can't say you did anything wrong; may have started too deep, I try to be no more than a step and a dive away from F6. With R1 running, and knowing I have first play at 3B, as well as a play back to 2B if R1 stops, not sure I move in toward first until I see the play develop there. If I do move in, and play goes straight to 3B, I am straight-lined; if R1 stops, I'm in the basepath of her return. Once play goes to 3B, I move parallel to the baseline, as I would on a steal.

The kicker here is that the runner went outside unexpectedly, rather than straight in on a slide. If you are too deep, you can't get the angle; if you were more shallow, maybe a quick step inside as the play/tag develops gets you the angle.

It's easy to blame PU; his answer is all wrong, of course. But, not his call, and he would likely be straight lined, too, because his path to the holding zone in foul territory up the third base line puts F5 between him and the attempted tag. This is one where you can each only adjust to the angle of the play, if you can, and rule on what you see. PU would have to bust into fair territory to see it, and BU has to make the adjustment inside, if possible.

My only other comment is that I probably have need for less "preponderance of evidence" to ring this out. Gut call is out, unless both players reveal the miss. Ball beat her, positioning was right, didn't slide, bad base running to go third, possible call of "out of base path to avoid the tag", etc.

[CecilOne]

wrt " I was astonished at my partner's answer, though. Any comments there? (We had not worked together before.)", same answer, need caffeine or to be struck by a throw while not watching the ball. Yes, that's rough, but applicable getting it right is important. Especially with a new partner, I tend to watch more than I will if it's a partner that I know will cover.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

F6 fielded the ball and made the throw inside the baselines - in the infield.Very good teams, play developed very fast.

Means F6 charged the ball? If so, right or rushing as Steve implied, I would have been moving toward 1st, parallel with F6, so probably would have been between F6 and 2nd base when she turned to throw. That might have given me an angle on the throw, if the swipe tag wasn't more than 30 degrees or so off the 2nd-3rd line.

Originally Posted by Dakota

BU was outside the baseline, and R1 remained upright between BU and F5, who came off the base a couple of steps for the throw and tag attempt.
IMO, BU should have been closer to 3B, but the play was too fast to get there. May have been positioned too far away to being with. BU was not moving with R1, but expected a play at 1B.

Sure closer to the play is always nice, but it looks like the angle would be bad, anyway.

Originally Posted by Dakota

I was BU - critique - I can take it.

Are you sure?

[Dakota]

Thanks for all the comments, guys. I knew it was my call by the book, and I knew I was out of position (at least for this call). I would not have been surprised if my partner would have said that he did not get a good look - but watching BR to first... why?

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Are you sure?

Well, it does depend on from WHO

Actually, since my partner was much more experienced than I in HS ball, and generally has a good reputation, I have been second guessing myself from the moment of our conference 'til now. So, yes, I am sure. I can take it. I know the typed word is limited in offering the complete picture, and since I was in the middle of it, my recollection may not be complete or objective, either.

I do believe I over-anticipated the play to 1B, but I did not move agressively into the infield given where F6 was - yes, she charged the ball, but the batted ball was hard hit, so she did not move very far. It was more of a mental lag - being surprised, I guess, that made me a tad slow to react. But, as quickly as the play happened, I'm not sure it would have mattered a lot.

Perhaps the thing to tuck away in the lesson learned category is with teams this good, with a runner on 2B, I need to position closer to 3B than I have been doing. I don't think I was too far out, but my reaction to the play going to 3rd was to move down toward 3B, rather than into the infield. That was a mistake the way the play developed.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Means F6 charged the ball? If so, right or rushing as Steve implied, I would have been moving toward 1st, parallel with F6, so probably would have been between F6 and 2nd base when she turned to throw. That might have given me an angle on the throw, if the swipe tag wasn't more than 30 degrees or so off the 2nd-3rd line.

As the play turned out, you would be fine. But, Dakota didn't say F6 charged the ball, and your position of choice puts you in straight line of the tag play at third if R1 slides straight in.

I'm hanging back to see how the play develops. I certainly want BU hustling in to make the call at 1B, but not at the expense of losing the call at 3B (which happens rarely, I agree, but is a big play to possibly miss, if it does).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, it does depend on from WHO

In that case, let's go grammar police. That would be "from WHOM!!