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Old Sat Apr 30, 2005, 07:50pm
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With playoffs occurring, I thought these might be good. I was in a game this evening and there were questions about who does what. I will refer to umpires as PU, U1 and U3.

Sit A: No outs, no one on. Sinking liner to right field. U1 goes out and rules no catch. F9 fires the ball to 1B, who has the call at 1B?

Sit B: R1 on 1B. U3 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. Is it appropriate for U3 to go out?

Sit C: R1 on 2B. U1 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. U3 goes out. Ball is not caught. R1 goes to 3B while ball is field and thrown to 3B. Who has responsibility for the call at third?

Sit D: Same as "Sit C", but ball is overthrown at 3B and R1 attempts to score. Who has the call at home plate?

Sit E: R1 on 2B, U1 in B... well actually B+½, instead of positioned on F4's left shoulder, positioned between 2B and F4, on the edge of the grass. This is to better watch R1 leaving early and better position on a throw back. Concerns with this?

Sit F: Same positioning as "Sit E", check swing on a right handed batter. Who should go PU go to? (And don't go back and change your answer for "Sit E". )

Other tricky 3 Umpire situtions that you can think of?
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Old Sat Apr 30, 2005, 08:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SC Ump
With playoffs occurring, I thought these might be good. I was in a game this evening and there were questions about who does what. I will refer to umpires as PU, U1 and U3.

Sit A: No outs, no one on. Sinking liner to right field. U1 goes out and rules no catch. F9 fires the ball to 1B, who has the call at 1B?


PU call all the way, trailing the BR.

Sit B: R1 on 1B. U3 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. Is it appropriate for U3 to go out?

No, it is more than appropriate; it is mandatory to have coverage on the liner.

Sit C: R1 on 2B. U1 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. U3 goes out. Ball is not caught. R1 goes to 3B while ball is field and thrown to 3B. Who has responsibility for the call at third?

First, with U1 in B, he should have gone out. When U3 goes out, PU takes the lead runner at 3B, U1 takes trail runner.

Sit D: Same as "Sit C", but ball is overthrown at 3B and R1 attempts to score. Who has the call at home plate?

PU has the lead runner. U1 has the trail runner. When U1 starts in counter-rotated position, he NEVER rotates home. Stay in 2 man mechanics, until the end of the play. PU must pivot and take the runner home.

Sit E: R1 on 2B, U1 in B... well actually B+�, instead of positioned on F4's left shoulder, positioned between 2B and F4, on the edge of the grass. This is to better watch R1 leaving early and better position on a throw back. Concerns with this?

Should be off 2B's right shoulder; that positioning is sufficient to cover the leaving early and throw back. The position you describe makes plays at 1B and check swings unnecessarily difficult.

Sit F: Same positioning as "Sit E", check swing on a right handed batter. Who should go PU go to? (And don't go back and change your answer for "Sit E". )

Repeat, wrong position for U1; but that is who must make that call. Certainly still in better position than U3, and check swing appeal is mandatory!!

Other tricky 3 Umpire situtions that you can think of?
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Old Sat Apr 30, 2005, 08:41pm
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I believe AtlUmp is right!

[Edited by buddha69 on Apr 30th, 2005 at 09:45 PM]
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Old Sat Apr 30, 2005, 11:57pm
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No changes to Atlump .
Very good .
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 06:38am
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Dan,
Steve is correct. I'd suggest that you download the umpire manual from the NCAA site. It covers 3-ump mechanics.
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 08:01am
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After reading AtlUmp's responses, there is nothing that I disagreed with. Prior to that, the main difference I had was I was caught up in one of our local associations policies, that only umpires in A or D, the corners, will go out. I think this is a policy that is left over from those that do BB. Thanks for reminding me that softball is completely different.

The play that raised these questions was a little frustrating. It was a situation where U3 went out and we properly reverted to two man mechanics. However, we couldn't agree on what the two man mechanics were. You'd think that would be the easy part. We did not do a post game discussion on this mix-up, but I will be following up for my own benefit. (I'm sure I was right... but that doesn't always mean I am. <*grin*> ) And then again, no matter who is right, it's obviously not good if a base is left uncovered.

Thanks for the input.
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SC Ump
With playoffs occurring, I thought these might be good. I was in a game this evening and there were questions about who does what. I will refer to umpires as PU, U1 and U3.
Speaking ASA:
Quote:
Sit A: No outs, no one on. Sinking liner to right field. U1 goes out and rules no catch. F9 fires the ball to 1B, who has the call at 1B?
U3. PU is to "assist" in watching the BR touch the base and return to the plate.
U3 comes inside and takes the BR/R all the way to 3B
Quote:


Sit B: R1 on 1B. U3 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. Is it appropriate for U3 to go out?
Depends on the UIC, but U3 should cover that.

Quote:
Sit C: R1 on 2B. U1 in B position. Sinking liner to left center field. U3 goes out. Ball is not caught. R1 goes to 3B while ball is field and thrown to 3B. Who has responsibility for the call at third?
U1 should have gone out. Though I don't care for the mechanic, PU has the call at 3B
Quote:

Sit D: Same as "Sit C", but ball is overthrown at 3B and R1 attempts to score. Who has the call at home plate?
PU
Quote:

Sit E: R1 on 2B, U1 in B... well actually B+½, instead of positioned on F4's left shoulder, positioned between 2B and F4, on the edge of the grass. This is to better watch R1 leaving early and better position on a throw back. Concerns with this?
With a runner on 2B, U1 should be off the right of F4 in a position in which s/he is comfortable that they can see as much of any play without interferring.
Quote:

Sit F: Same positioning as "Sit E", check swing on a right handed batter. Who should go PU go to? (And don't go back and change your answer for "Sit E". )
RHB, always U1. BTW, going on a check swing is NOT mandatory unless the game is NCAA. I did not see anything suggesting NCAA until the SC's latter post.


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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 10:25am
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I'm curious as to how often someone actually goes out in FP.

Its rarer than hens teeth.. maybe I see it once a year.

THe ball is there so quick or if its hit hard enough to give you time to go out, its over the fence, in my experience. Not like baseball where the ball can be in the air long enough to fetch a burger from the snack shack and still get there in time to see the catch.
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 10:29am
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Wade,
In a 3-man, somebody goes out on just about every ball into the outfield.

In a 2-man, from the A position, we'll go out frequently - never from any other position.
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 10:40am
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Not when I work 3 man, not in my NFHS mechanics book, or in what I see and especially not with runners on where coverage is pretty specific and doesnt include going out on every ball to the outfield. You got the rabbit by 3B who moves around but mostly its the same as 2 man where that is concerned (going out)

Where are you getting your info?
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 11:48am
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Wade,
In college ball, we regularly work 3-man.
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Old Sun May 01, 2005, 01:30pm
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And one goes out on nearly every ball to the outfield? I can understand going out more often in certain sit's and hits, since two umps rotating is pretty good coverage..

Learn something new everyday. I would like to attend an NCAA clinic at some point though.
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Old Mon May 02, 2005, 11:12am
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We just had our semi-annual 3-umpire clinic yesterday, mainly for umpires that will be working 3-umpire games in the state tournament, and those umpires scheduled for an ASA national this year.

The clinic was presented by Emily Alexander, who basically wrote the 3-umpire mechanics for the NCAA. AtlUmpSteve's responses were dead on, based on what was presented at our clinic. I did want to comment on one of the situations that there were two conflicting answers to:


Sit A: No outs, no one on. Sinking liner to right field. U1 goes out and rules no catch. F9 fires the ball to 1B, who has the call at 1B?

Steve: PU call all the way, trailing the BR.
Mike R: U3. PU is to "assist" in watching the BR touch the base and return to the plate.
U3 comes inside and takes the BR/R all the way to 3B

According to Emily, this call belongs to the PU. He can get closer to the play and be more "believable". The PU does not take a trailing path, but must move out into the infield to get an angle on the potential play at first. This often turns into a bang-bang play at first. The U3 would have to sprint all of the way across the diamond and still probably only be able to get to about the circle by the time the call needs to be made. By letting the PU take the call at first, U3 is able to come in and get plays at second and third, PU can move back to the plate once the BR has cleared second base.

Also - one of the nice things about the 3-umpire system is the opportunity to send an umpire to the outfield on fly balls and still have decent coverage with 2 umpires in the infield. We are taught to have an umpire go out on every fly ball....Since we don't work 3-umpire on a regular basis, it just eliminates one decision from our thought process.

SC asked about other "tricky' situations in 3-umpire. The one that we covered yesterday is the "shoot" play.

R1 on first, U3 goes out on a sinking line drive to center. U1 now has responsibility for the play at second. The runner could be holding close to first, not knowing if the ball would be caught. This may be the only time that an umpire does not come inside on a ball in the outfield. U1 needs to parallel the runner to second base on the outfield side to get an angle on the possible force play at second. PU would have third and home and after R1 clears second, 1U has the B/R.


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Old Tue May 03, 2005, 06:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy

Sit A: No outs, no one on. Sinking liner to right field. U1 goes out and rules no catch. F9 fires the ball to 1B, who has the call at 1B?

Steve: PU call all the way, trailing the BR.
Mike R: U3. PU is to "assist" in watching the BR touch the base and return to the plate.
U3 comes inside and takes the BR/R all the way to 3B

According to Emily, this call belongs to the PU. He can get closer to the play and be more "believable". The PU does not take a trailing path, but must move out into the infield to get an angle on the potential play at first. This often turns into a bang-bang play at first. The U3 would have to sprint all of the way across the diamond and still probably only be able to get to about the circle by the time the call needs to be made. By letting the PU take the call at first, U3 is able to come in and get plays at second and third, PU can move back to the plate once the BR has cleared second base.
On a large field, I could agree with no problems, but a 60' field, I don't think it is that hard for U3 to get to the circle. Also, if the PU is moving toward the circle for the angle, you've lost that extra set of eyes at a different angle if anything goofy happens. Granted, that should be an exception on this particular play, but you've never had to deal with "Rowe's Law".
Quote:

Also - one of the nice things about the 3-umpire system is the opportunity to send an umpire to the outfield on fly balls and still have decent coverage with 2 umpires in the infield. We are taught to have an umpire go out on every fly ball....Since we don't work 3-umpire on a regular basis, it just eliminates one decision from our thought process.

SC asked about other "tricky' situations in 3-umpire. The one that we covered yesterday is the "shoot" play.

R1 on first, U3 goes out on a sinking line drive to center. U1 now has responsibility for the play at second. The runner could be holding close to first, not knowing if the ball would be caught. This may be the only time that an umpire does not come inside on a ball in the outfield. U1 needs to parallel the runner to second base on the outfield side to get an angle on the possible force play at second. PU would have third and home and after R1 clears second, 1U has the B/R.
You cannot get a good angle for a force at 2B from the outside unless you stay back toward 1B. Been there, done that. BTW, if I remember correctly from OKC, ASA is standing by the inside-outside theory and will not support this mechanic as a standard. An exception to avoid interferring with a play, yes, but not as a standard mechanic which is what some umpires have done over the past few years. BTW, I have used it and it can work on routine plays, but an umpire can really get burnt if not careful.

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Old Tue May 03, 2005, 07:32pm
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Mike,
That's a key point - "but an umpire can really get burnt if not careful." Any umpire working a 3-man who isn't careful or knowledgable can & will make the crew FUBAR'd. I've been that umpire in the past and seen others do it. It's a great system, but ya gotta know what you're doing.

On another note - anyone else getting multiple notices of a replay? Periodically, I get 3 notices each time somebody responds to a thread I have participated in.
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