Is This Allowed?

[Al]

I was base umpire for 8/under coach-pitch Monday night and while watching for any runner leaving the base before the batter hit the ball I noticed one girl stepped off of first base after the ball was pitched and was only about half way to the plate. That would be easy to call, but before the ball gets to the batter she is back on the bag. I was about to call her out for leaving early, but then I saw her take a step back and get back on first base before the ball arrived to the batter. I then thought to myself I think I should have called her out even though she got back on the base. So on the very next pitch she takes a step off the base again and I call out time ... "the runner on 1st is out for leaving the base too soon". After the game the coach said she does that all the time and no ump has ever called her out. It happened to be his daughter and he happened to be an assistant for a coach-pitch team I coached two years ago. He went on to say all she is doing is changing which foot she is going to lead off with. I said to him she is not allowed to leave the base till the ball is hit by the batter and even if she gets back in time she still left the base before it was hit by the batter.

So now I'm second guessing my out call, but believe I am right. I want to know what is proper should it happen again. Anyone that knows for sure please let me know. ...Thanks, ...Al

[mcrowder]

By the book she's out.

Assuming this is a regular season game, however, by all rules of civility regarding 8 year olds, I probably would have simply called time after the first instance, and told 1BC to keep her from doing that. I might even, if it happened again, had another chat with the coach along the lines of "Coach, please stop them from doing that, I really don't want to call anyone out for that."

Heck, if the girl is just switching feet, and simply doing it clumsily, I might even extend such a warning to slightly older girls.

[DaveASA/FED]

Not sure what rules you are playing under. To my knowledge there are no specific 8U rules, 10U in ASA but unless there is a section I haven't read, no 8U specific.

With that being said I look at it as if an 18U girl did that prior to the pitcher releasing the ball would I call her out? Answer is probably yes! Let's not get into intent of the rule, the intent is to keep them at the base and get no advantage like 10 extra feet toward the next base. But the rule says them must stay in contact with the base until the ball is released(ASA and FED), may be a league rule in 8U or a rule set I haven't seen to stay till it is hit. In your case why I said probably is IMO, the first time I saw this I would have called time, went over to brush off 1st base and quietly told the girl to make sure she stays in contact till the ball is hit (released in older girls). In an 8U you might not get away that easy, there might have to be a coach involved to tell her that as younger girls tend to not understand little remarks from umpires without a full explanation and it is good for the coach to learn too!

[tcblue13]

I did a LL Minors last night and called a girl out who left the bag while the pitch was in her wind up. All she did was step off and then back on. That is illegal by the book and she is out. I call those so that the players and the coaches will know not to do it next time. As for the remark about other blues letting her get away with it. Now, they probably won't have to worry about it because you called it. Good call

In Fed ball, I do not call the rocker step that pulls the front foot off the bag as the runner rocks backward to begin her momentum.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I did a LL Minors last night and called a girl out who left the bag while the pitch was in her wind up. All she did was step off and then back on. That is illegal by the book and she is out. I call those so that the players and the coaches will know not to do it next time. As for the remark about other blues letting her get away with it. Now, they probably won't have to worry about it because you called it. Good call

In Fed ball, I do not call the rocker step that pulls the front foot off the bag as the runner rocks backward to begin her momentum.

Hell, that's just as illegal and more advantageous as the action on which you just called the runner out.

[Al]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Not sure what rules you are playing under. To my knowledge there are no specific 8U rules, 10U in ASA but unless there is a section I haven't read, no 8U specific.

With that being said I look at it as if an 18U girl did that prior to the pitcher releasing the ball would I call her out? Answer is probably yes! Let's not get into intent of the rule, the intent is to keep them at the base and get no advantage like 10 extra feet toward the next base. But the rule says them must stay in contact with the base until the ball is released(ASA and FED), may be a league rule in 8U or a rule set I haven't seen to stay till it is hit. In your case why I said probably is IMO, the first time I saw this I would have called time, went over to brush off 1st base and quietly told the girl to make sure she stays in contact till the ball is hit (released in older girls). In an 8U you might not get away that easy, there might have to be a coach involved to tell her that as younger girls tend to not understand little remarks from umpires without a full explanation and it is good for the coach to learn too!

Thanks to all for good answers. The rules for our 8/under do not allow for the runner to leave the base till the batter hits the ball. As you all know the rule for kid fast-pitch allows stealing, but the runner cannot leave before the ball is released from the pitchers hand. I called one runner out in kid-pitch for that last year and got no heat from any coach. I think some coaches test the umpires by telling their runners to cheat a little and hope the ump doesn't see it; or call it even if he/she sees it. But that's a whole lot different than this situation with the runner hopping off, then back on. Anyway, what's done is done and it didn't go against the rules, so at least I don't have egg on my face in that regard. So the call was good, but I think I should have just given a private warning to the base coach, especially since I was not 100% sure if she was allowed to take both feet a couple feet off then get back on. For the life of me I don't know why she doesn't get her feet in the position she wants them before the play becomes live. I guess she will from now on, at least when I'm umpiring.

The game was close too. But thankfully they ended up winning the game. I think I'll talk about this in the next pre-games to make it clear to all the coaches. Thanks again! BTW, while I was talking to the coach about this his little girl (the one that I called out) was there and I asked her if we are still friends. She smiled and said: "Yes, umpire Al" and gave me a hug .. ...Al

[tcblue13]

Mike,
You are correct. I read the rule after I saw your post. When I had encountered that situation earlier in the season, I was BU and asked the seasoned PU about the sitch and he said that as long as the runner was not moving toward the next base or home there was no violation and I took his word for it. That is why I come here and I am grateful to be set straight. I did very well on the FED test and continue to study the rules but somehow missed or overlooked that the runner must maintain contact with the base until the ball leave (sic) the pitcher's hand.

I won't let it go again.
Thanks
Charlie

[debeau]

Here in NZ many runners take of before the pitch but always go back .
If they keep going we call them out , if they return we dont .
The intent of the rule is to stop any advantage by the runner and as they return they havnt gained anything .
Technically they have left before the pitch but they do return ,
If we call them out it is an easy out .
As noted before this high level mens ball .

[Al]

Originally Posted by debeau

Here in NZ many runners take of before the pitch but always go back .
If they keep going we call them out , if they return we dont .
The intent of the rule is to stop any advantage by the runner and as they return they havnt gained anything .
Technically they have left before the pitch but they do return ,
If we call them out it is an easy out .
As noted before this high level mens ball .

Hey debeau,

Trying to keep track of that (did the runners get back in time) must be a riot, especially when bases are loaded and you have no partner.

It's gotten a little crazy here in TN. on some things. We now have a rule that no coach or assistant coach can touch a runner at any time, even between pitches when the ball is dead. Takes some of the human element out of the game. No hi-fives, pat on the backs. .. Al

[debeau]

We always work with a partner and often 3 man teams .
I suppose my perspective , like it or not , is from a very high level of play ,top level mens ball .
This differs from say U12 or U16