DEFO/DP/Flex explanation

[BGM]

Greetings all --

The link I had to a pretty comprehensive article describing (in clearer more understandable language than the ASA rule book) the basics as well as finer points of the ASA/JO DEFO/DP substitution rules has become a dead end, and I can't even recall where the link took me.

Does anyone here have any direction to a good, basic primer on the hows and whys of ASA specifically girls fastpitch rules about these confusing substitution rules?

Thanks.

BGM

[CecilOne]

Try http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/lin...t-ASA-NFHS.ppt


If that doesn't help, ask a question about a specific portion.

[whiskers_ump]

Go here:

http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...stoDP-FLEX.htm

CecilOne has helped

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

Go here:

http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...stoDP-FLEX.htm

CecilOne has helped

The above link provides the following commentary. That information is in RED.

I have inserted some comments in BLUE.

* * *

The keys to DP/FLEX are:

A. No player can bat in different batting order slots during a game.

Yet, the FLEX player is initially placed in the 10th spot but, if she should ever bat, she'll have to bat in the spot occupied by the DP. So, it is not quite true that their spot in the "batting order" never changes.

B. Making it known before the game with the lineup and being sure all changes are reported to and tracked by the PU.

Yet, the penalties for a host of different scenarios are sometimes difficult to recognize or unravel.

Off hand, what would you rule if the offense should point out that the defense has had the DP playing defense throughout the inning while the FLEX has been on the bench?

Also, what if the DP is the leadoff batter and the FLEX batter comes up to bat? Is she an illegal substitute -or- is she batting out of order?

Would it make any difference if the DP was the 5th batter in the lineup when the FLEX improperly bats in the 10th spot?

C. Knowing the provisions:

1. DP starts on offense, FLEX starts on defense

Not a requirement! The DP can go out on the field in the 1st inning and the FLEX can bat for the DP in her first at-bat.

True, these are substitutions but it is not true that they have to "start" in those positions.

2. If not in starting “function”, not in game

True! See above.

3. The DP and FLEX players can't be in the batting order at the same time

When the "batting order" is submitted, both the DP and FLEX must be included "at the same time."

4. The FLEX can only bat in the DP slot

5. The DP can play defense at the same time as the FLEX – any position

6. In #5, the player not playing defense still bats

D. DP/Flex switches change the number of players in the game, but do not change the batting order.

When the FLEX bats she moves from the 10th spot to the DP's spot.

E. DP/FLEX replacing each other are not “substitutions”, but when either leaves the game and returns, that is a reentry.

Completely incorrect! When the FLEX replaces the DP in the batting order it must be reported or it is an unreported substitution violation. The same applies when the DP plays defense for the FLEX. These must be reported!

Of course, the reentries must also be reported.

Lots of reporting is required!

* * *

It's a convoluted rule. Substitution rules shouldn't be so complicated. The mere fact that you are looking for elaborating information and there are so many links attempting to explain it says it all. Even your acknowledgement that the ASA rulebook is inadequate should tell you something.

The DP/FLEX provision is a good idea gone awry, in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Dakota]

You are going out of your way to make all this appear complicated, when it is not.

There is a difference between the starting lineup and the batting order. This is also true for the DH rule.

All moves by either the DP or FLEX must be reported to the umpire.

Violations involving the FLEX batting unreported are different from BOO, and you know it (but are pretending not to).

That just about covers all of your horrible complications, doesn't it.

[bigwes68]

Saw a situation the other day in an NCAA D-I game that confused the heck out of me.

In the lineup submitted to the press box (where I was) an hour before game time, the DP was actually listed in the 10th spot in the lineup. Apparently, at the plate meeting, they made some sort of change that I still don't understand. But in the end, the player listed in the 10th spot never batted and never played the field. It was as if they were batting a straight 9.

The sports information director from the school in question tried to explain it to me, but I still never quite understood it. Any idea how this works?

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You are going out of your way to make all this appear complicated, when it is not.

There is a difference between the starting lineup and the batting order. This is also true for the DH rule.

All moves by either the DP or FLEX must be reported to the umpire.

Violations involving the FLEX batting unreported are different from BOO, and you know it (but are pretending not to).

That just about covers all of your horrible complications, doesn't it.

The questions were mostly rhetorical to make a point. YOU may know the answers. It may all seem so simple to YOU. But I assure you that there are plenty of umpires and coaches who don't share your knowledge. You are in the vast minority.

I don't have to "pretend" that it's complicated. All the evidence suggests that it IS.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[tcblue13]

What is DEFO?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

What is DEFO?

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

Muchas Gracias

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

Don't blame NFHS for this one. NCAA was first to make the change; it seems the college coaches, all college graduates, most with graduate degrees, even some with doctorates, just couldn't grasp why a position called DEfense ONly could play offense (when she was no longer playing that position!! When you move your catcher to shortstop, she isn't catcher any more is she??) sometime during a game. They insisted a new name be coined, and FLEX was the NCAA creation. ASA agreed to accept the new term, for consistency; when NFHS decided to adopt the rule to replace the more baseball DH rule, it adopted the then universal names.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Don't blame NFHS for this one. NCAA was first to make the change; it seems the college coaches, all college graduates, most with graduate degrees, even some with doctorates, just couldn't grasp why a position called DEfense ONly could play offense (when she was no longer playing that position!! When you move your catcher to shortstop, she isn't catcher any more is she??) sometime during a game. They insisted a new name be coined, and FLEX was the NCAA creation. ASA agreed to accept the new term, for consistency; when NFHS decided to adopt the rule to replace the more baseball DH rule, it adopted the then universal names.

Like you said, Steve, the folks just couldn't grasp the concept of when the player designated as the DEFO batted, that player was no longer the DEFO because that position had disappeared. When not batting this player is defense only, hence the name.