Is sub allowed? or not?

[grizwald]

Watching a kids tourney this weekend.

Time Out ends, teams returning to floor. While lineing up for for inbounds, while ref still has the ball. Coach A decides to send sub to the table. Ref makes the sub wait until the next opportunity.

I thought that as long as the ball hadn't been given to the inbounder yet, it could happen then (apparently so did the scorekeeper because they blew the horn). But the ref signaled for them to wait, and then gave the ball to be inbounded.

Then I started to question myself, thinking that the ref has the rule right and the reason I don't know the rule is because a coach normally wouldn't change his mind on a lineup after he's had the timeout to instruct the players. And on top of that there were no complaints from Coach A, and it really wasn't any big deal at the time.

Anyway to make a long story short, I was just curious is the ref was correct or not. I keep the book & scoreboard at times and I'm always trying to pick up on things in order to do a better job.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

NFHS, the official was correct. By Rule, Subs must check in before the warning horn, which would be at 45 seconds on a full time out. If they haven't checked in prior to the warning horn, they would not be allowed in the game until the next orroptunity to sub.

[jeffpea]

In this instance, the official was correct to deny the sub's entry into the game at that time. While I can't provide rule # citation (others in this forum will certainly do that in a little bit), all sub's must report to the official scorer prior to the first horn signaling the end of the time out. Once the horns sounds, all subs must wait until the next stoppage of play.

At the end of a time-out, the horn is to sound twice (Full TO - :60 and :75). The first horns signals the end of the time-out; the second horn signals "ready for play". Teams are to break the huddle after the 1st horn and be on the court and "ready for play" when the 2nd horn sounds.

Hope that helps.

[grizwald]

I figured that he had to be right. I was just wondering for future information, now it makes sense, thank you.

Any other dead ball spots where subs CAN'T enter? other than before the first of two free throws. I know that one (but only after sounding the horn a few dozen times before the first free throw - you guys must have some serious levels of patience to deal with us lame brained scorekeepers)

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by grizwald

Any other dead ball spots where subs CAN'T enter? other than before the first of two free throws. I know that one (but only after sounding the horn a few dozen times before the first free throw - you guys must have some serious levels of patience to deal with us lame brained scorekeepers)

Nope. The subs entering prior to the time-out ending and the FT situation (1 shot vs 2 shots) are the only restrictions that come to mind.

Of course you probably are aware of the 2 shots/FT exception: if player B1 commits his 5th foul while A1 is in the act of shooting- B1's replacement, as well as ANY subs from either team, can enter the game PRIOR to A1's FT's.

BTW you scorekeepers are invaluable to the officials on the flr.! Good table crews make our jobs easier and a lot more enjoyable. Thanks for your hard work.

[Dribble]

Other times a player cannot enter the game is if he/she was replaced and wants to come in again without expiration of any time on the clock.

i.e. A1 is subbed by A2 before the last free throw and lines up at the scoretable to replace A3 after a successful FT. A1 must wait until the next dead ball situation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by grizwald

Any other dead ball spots where subs CAN'T enter?

Yep, after any made goal -- unless there is a whistle for a stoppage of play.

[grizwald]

lol

Yeah Chuck I knew that one too, I guess I should've worded my second post better.

I think I'd get corrected really quick if I was blowing the horn after made field goal attempts (probably by the ref finding someone else to run the scoreboard)

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

In this instance, the official was correct to deny the sub's entry into the game at that time. While I can't provide rule # citation (others in this forum will certainly do that in a little bit), all sub's must report to the official scorer prior to the first horn signaling the end of the time out. Once the horns sounds, all subs must wait until the next stoppage of play.

Not entirley true. Suppose in his original situation, after this "late sub" checks in, and before A1 gets the ball for the throwin, Team B requests and is granted a Timeout. Then, the subs would be allowed to enter without having to wait for the next stoppage of play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Of course you probably are aware of the 2 shots/FT exception: if player B1 commits his 5th foul while A1 is in the act of shooting- B1's replacement, as well as ANY subs from either team, can enter the game PRIOR to A1's FT's.

This is one I should know, but does this exception also apply to injuries? Specifically, do the other subs get to enter with the injured player's replacement?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is one I should know, but does this exception also apply to injuries? Specifically, do the other subs get to enter with the injured player's replacement?

For FED and NCAAW, if a player is required to be replaced, then any subs who have already properly reported to the table are allowed to enter the game with the sub for replaced player.

For NCAAM, the other waiting subs must wait for the next opportunity to sub.

[Overnbach]

New member here. I registered just to ask this question.

As the scoreboard operator, is it my responsibility to inform officials when a player reports after the first horn? Frequently, between quarters or during a time out, in the general confusion in front of the table, a substitute will report after the horn, and then just go out on the floor with the rest of the team, and the officials on the floor either don't notice or don't enforce the rule.

[jkjenning]

Originally posted by Overnbach
As the scoreboard operator, is it my responsibility to inform officials when a player reports after the first horn?

Hello Overnbach! In reading rules 2-11 [Scorer's Duties] and 2-12 [Timer's Duties] I don't see any reference to this as one of your duties/responsibilites. I think the officials may ask for your help in this, but by rule it seems to me that this is clearly an officials' responsibility. I would say that if the officiating crew shows concern that you help them out with this, then by all means do so - otherwise, let the crew observe for themselves and decide whether a substitute is legal.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Hello Overnbach! In reading rules 2-11 [Scorer's Duties] and 2-12 [Timer's Duties] I don't see any reference to this as one of your duties/responsibilites. I think the officials may ask for your help in this, but by rule it seems to me that this is clearly an officials' responsibility. I would say that if the officiating crew shows concern that you help them out with this, then by all means do so - otherwise, let the crew observe for themselves and decide whether a substitute is legal.

Not true.

2-11-2
The scorer shall:
Notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players.

It's up to the scorer to notify the nearest official if a player attempts to enter the game:
without reporting.
if he has reported after the warning horn sounds.
after being disqualified.
after being subbed for but before time expires on the clock.

[jkjenning]

Thanks for the correction, BktBallRef!! I need to parse the words more thoughtfully, it appears.

Perhaps you will answer a related question? In browsing basketball camps for this summer, I notice that all of them, so far, have contained disclaimers similar to "this is not intended to be a rules clinic", meaning the focus will be on evaluating mechanics, etc. So that disclaimer begs the question: "are there clinics specifically devoted to the rules?" I know our local association has them, but they are generally focused on rule revisions rather than a "systematic study of the rules".