Balk/Illegal Pitch???

[BoBo]

Pitcher comes set and then begins her windup. Catches cleat and stumbles but does not finish pitch.

The pitch is considered a ball I believe.

Now if there are runners on base are they allowed to advance to the next base or is this a dead ball?

[AtlUmpSteve]

The pitch actually begins in softball when one hand is removed from the ball after the one touch. There is no set; there is a required pause to take or simulate taking a signal. Some pitchers' motion includes part of the windup prior to bringing the hands together.

The above means that the pitch may or may not have started. If it started, it is an illegal pitch; and all illegal pitches are penalized by a ball on the batter, and a base to each runner. The ball is not dead in any case. If the pitch did not start, this is a "no pitch", and the ball is still alive. The word balk "balk" does not appear in softball rulebooks.

This may be different in the baseball cloned rulesets (Little League and Pony), but is true for all softball based rules.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by BoBo

...does not finish pitch.

By this, I presume you mean the ball never leaves her hand and I agree with Steve.

At least in NFHS, if all other aspects of the stumble are legal and the ball leaves the pitcher's hand (slipping backwards or forwards or even just falling to the ground) 6-2-6 states that it is a pitch and a ball on the batter.

[EdJW]

Why make a totally inappropriate crack about PONY and LL softball? PONY puts the rules on the web. Unlike ASA which keeps the rules secret. And the PONY rules for girls softball are totally in accord with Fed rules for pitching and are generally in accord with ASA. So, why your totally inappropriate crack about PONY using baseball derived rules for softball?

Perhaps you should apologize on this forum right now.

Perhaps you have an ASA bias. Well, many of us in NJ would like to see ASA support girls softball. But, it seems like this will never happen. Not as long as the current ASA structure in NJ makes money off of what seems to be a flat out illegal insurance operation. That takes insurance money for teams but does nothing to support girls softball in NJ.

[mcrowder]

Ed - I've read and reread Steve's comments, and I'm completely unable to see what you thought was inappropriate or required an apology. I see nothing derogatory toward baseball at all, merely a comment that the answer to the question may be different from what he stated in baseball, but that his answer is correct for all different rulesets of softball.

What's the beef?

[SC Ump]

My understanding is (or used to be) the same as Steve's regarding LL. When I did LL Softball, the rules were slightly different from ASA and NFHS in some technical situations like can a player overrun first on a walk or can they back up toward home plate to avoid a tag. Those rules seemed to be consistant with BB rules, like the roots of the rules were in BB philosophy.

I have never done Pony and have not done LL in a quite a while. I don't know if that is still true, or if there are differences in the pitching regulations in this situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What's the beef?

Ed doesn't like ASA. He doesn't like the fact that ASA considers the rule book as an umpire/team registration benefit.

If I remember correctly, he was also part of a group who intended to sue ASA this season concerning an equipment issue.

JMHO,

[EdJW]

What I don't like is an organization that has the brass ones to call itself the National Governing body of softball in the US that continues to refuse to make its rules available to the public.

And what I don't like in NJ is the simple fact that the organization is nothing but an insurance collection agency as far a girls fastpitch is concerned. Anyone in America can go onto the national ASA website right now, click on the New Jersey link, and see that there is no information whatsoever regarding current happenings in the fastpitch world.

The big question, why does Mikey seem to support the current terrible state of ASA softball in NJ?

To MCCrowder, my issue is that an umpire said PONY softball rules are derived from baseball. Despite the fact that the rules seem to be Fed softball rules with some leaning to ASA rules. Where did the Atlanta ump come up with the assertion that PONY softball rules are cloned from baseball?

[azbigdawg]

It sounds like someone needs to address the local New Jersey problem and settle down. I saw NO slap in the face towards any other organization in the original post. I have NO issue with ASA not putting the rules online. If you want a copy of the rules.............register.... If you want to make New Jersey ASA better.......participate...... if not......... ( I cant type that...my Momma would be PISSED). As Cheesy (and pointless) as "the national governing body of softball" sounds....they ARE the leading organization in most areas....Ill say it again...If New Jersey isnt the way you like it..... start to work changing it.

[bkbjones]

Ed,
I will echo what Darrell said, and steal a quote from someone else.

You can lead, follow or get out of the way. If you don't like the way things are, I suggest you become a leader. What have YOU done to make things better, what are you doing now to make things better, and what will you do in the future?

If you have a question about ASA being the National Governing Body of Softball, I suggest you do a little research to find out why that is instead of coming in here half-cocked with some cockamamie agenda that, in my humble opinion, is horribly invalid.

Why others publicly publish their rules I have no idea, but it's a stupid idea. Anyone who pays their dues can get a rule book. Teams get rule books, leagues get rule books, umpires get rule books - all they have to do is register.

Not all the money goes for insurance, but thank goodness some does. A few years ago in a state south of here, there was a very tragic accident. A life was lost, there were bills to pay. The folks at Bollinger, in my humble opinion, went above and beyond. And if you think LL and PONY don't feed at the insurance trough, I have some other news for ya...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EdJW

What I don't like is an organization that has the brass ones to call itself the National Governing body of softball in the US that continues to refuse to make its rules available to the public.

ASA doesn't "call" itself the NGB, the USOC and congress do that in accordance with U.S. Code 2205

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/36C2205.txt

And what I don't like in NJ is the simple fact that the organization is nothing but an insurance collection agency as far a girls fastpitch is concerned. Anyone in America can go onto the national ASA website right now, click on the New Jersey link, and see that there is no information whatsoever regarding current happenings in the fastpitch world.

That is true with many states and metros. Just because they don't submit their schedule to the national office doesn't mean nothing is happening. I know plenty of umpires in NJ that work every weekend, so something is going on.

The big question, why does Mikey seem to support the current terrible state of ASA softball in NJ?

I don't worry about NJ, I have enough to deal with in DE. See, your problem is you have never taken the time to find out how the ASA works, hence ignorance drives your comments.

To MCCrowder, my issue is that an umpire said PONY softball rules are derived from baseball. Despite the fact that the rules seem to be Fed softball rules with some leaning to ASA rules. Where did the Atlanta ump come up with the assertion that PONY softball rules are cloned from baseball?

Maybe because PONY is a baseball-driven organization like LL unlike ASA and other organizations which are softball-driven organizations.

BTW, I believe PONY's insurance program runs through the same NJ-based company that ASA's does.

Like I said folks, Ed doesn't like ASA. Still waiting to hear how that lawsuit is going.

[UMP 64]

Why don't we stick to the original question, and leave who is the governing body, king of softball or what ever, to another thread.

Ball on the batter, since the pitcher began her wind up, and did not complete it. I had this very same thing last night.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by UMP 64

Why don't we stick to the original question?

Because we don't know the rule set.

In NFHS ball, where the pitch has started with any normal motion, and the pitcher does not complete the delivery, the call is IP, ball and on the batter, and advance runners.

In ASA any preliminary motion doesn't matter, the pitch doesn't start until the hands separate. If the hands did not separate, then the pitcher can stop, and step back off the plate and we have NO CALL. If hands did separate, then call is the same as in the NFHS.

WMB

[Dakota]

Ed is a well-known troll from eteamz. Best to ignore him.

A couple of technical / rules issues raised in this thread, though.

1) State associations (in all softball organizations I am aware of, including ASA, NFHS, AFA, etc. - no Pony in these parts) are independent of each other. Officials in one state have no authority over officials in another state.

2) "National Governing Body of Softball" is not what ASA "calls itself." It is what ASA is. This means the ASA is the governing body for international softball as it pertains to US national teams, team formation, rules, etc. It relates to international competion. It is something ASA has earned and is justly proud of.

3) Both Pony and LL are predominately baseball-centric organizations who also have a softball division. Nothing necessarily wrong with that in principle, but you cannot pretend it is not true, either. LL, in particular, has what might be called modified baseball rules rather than softball rules. Don't know about Pony.

As to the OP's question, the answer will depend on the rules being used in the game, as several have pointed out. There would be a different interpretation between ASA and NFHS, as WMB has pointed out.

[Dakota]

PS: There are several ways to purchase an ASA rule book, and Ed has been informed of these in the past. He rants and raves mostly to get a response.