The state of the game.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, but now you're assuming the NCAA really means it and the coaches actually pays attention to it.

What's the penalty if a coach is shown to have taught a player to cheat?

I think that you knew the answer to that before you even formulated the question.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I think that you knew the answer to that before you even formulated the question.

It's still a valid question, though. Isn't it?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It's still a valid question, though. Isn't it?

True enough.

[tcblue13]

Leaving early is one thing because of the timing involved. This deal with the pitcher lifting does not seem to give her an advantage in control or velocity. I agree with fastpitch that it can lead to a loss of focus. The baserunners advance (into scoring position) which puts more pressure on the pitcher. If this is a "cheat", it is not a very good one. Just play ball.

[SF]

I understand the point that this doesn't reflect particularly well on coaches. Though it is disheartening I don't know that it is anything new. I would imagine eventually that will catch up to them, e.g. in the playoffs when an umpire will call it and the pitcher can't correct it. These things happen... its part of the job.

[Al]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And you wonder why some youth of this country have a feeling of entitlement. The "if it's not nailed down, it must belong to me" attitude is not a very good report on the parenting skills of our society.

Hey Mike,

One time while umping by myself I had a lousy position and had to make a call. I was not 100% sure that a tag was made. I was however able to get a good enough look where it looked like the glove made slight contact so I called the runner out. I had very little noise on it so most observers must have agreed the tag was made. I knew the fielder and after the game I asked her if she touched the runner and she said yes. She went on to say her coach told all of his players if an umpire ever asks you if you made a tag tell him/her yes even if you missed the tag. So much for honesty. I told her I would rather tell the truth even if it meant losing the game, and she agreed. Any coach that would tell his team to lie is a disgrace and IMO should not even be allowed to coach young players. The kids are there to learn and to have fun; not to learn how to cheat in order to give them a better chance to win. As a parent, if my kid told me her coach said that I would go to that coach and say I don't appreciate you telling my kid, or any other kid to lie.

Pretty bad when adults would make liars out of kids so HIS team can win! ..Al

[Chess Ref]

It's cheating even if I don't call it. I was under the belief that high school sports was about character development, learning to work as a team, and all the other beautiful cliches that are out there. I am a cynic by nature or enviroment-the debate rages on- but my personal observations are the adults around high school sports are pretty nasty. Alot of the adults have no self-control, lack the ability to realistically see what is going on , just mouth the mantras about sportsmanship and cannot walk the talk about being role models.

I love walking out on the diamond before the game. "Hey blue how's it going?". "Nice weather today blue " "Can I get you a water blue ?" I am everybodys friend. One pitch doesn't go their way and these people turn into feral cats with all the social skills of a career criminal.

So telling a high school kid who is looking for guidance and help in developing life skills it's okay to cheat, lie and behave badly towards others is not a good thing.

Rant and Rave off.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

Knowing the rules and taking advantage in a game is a far cry from teaching cheating. In the first post I think the coach gains nothing but an opportunity to have her pitcher lose her focus. Getting girls to be aggressive baserunners is a challenge with most leaving late. Tue night our catcher told me she had made a somewhat colorful remark after a girl slid into her and knocked the ball out at the plate. In no uncertain terms I told her she'd better never do that again and in the team meeting reiterated that no one on the team will ever use foul language or direct disparaging remarks to the other team or the umpires. The other team's 3B had been doing that toward our dugout toward the latter part of the game. As a coach, that is just an opportunity for me to bring it to the attention of the BU and hopefully gain an advantage. I'd be interested to hear where you guys draw the line on disqualification for foul language.

No matter what the age, if the player uses foul language, it is an automatic ejection if any of the following are true:
(a) She is loud enough to be heard by the fans, or
(b) She accompanies her foul language with angry gestures (i.e. bat slamming, angry stares, throwing of equipment, stomping, etc.), or
(c) She is addressing another individual (i.e. name calling, taunting, etc.), or
(d) She uses an outrageously inflammatory or inappropriate word/phrase beyond what many would consider a "normal" expletive. (i.e. normal = sh*t!, d*mn!, cr*p!)

I tend to give more slack to older players.

I also call baseball games, if I had ejected every player who, after making an error or striking out, said, "Sh*t!" or "Son-of-a-b*tch", I'd have a thousand ejection notches on my belt.

The bottom line is: I eject players for inappropriate use of foul language. What is inappropriate? I know it when I see and hear it.

I don't recall this ever being a problem in any game I've ever called, nor, have I ever ejected a player or coach for the use of foul language. Have I ever heard foul language on the field? Hell, yes!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

No matter what the age, if the player uses foul language, it is an automatic ejection if any of the following are true:
(a) She is loud enough to be heard by the fans, or
(b) She accompanies her foul language with angry gestures (i.e. bat slamming, angry stares, throwing of equipment, stomping, etc.), or
(c) She is addressing another individual (i.e. name calling, taunting, etc.), or
(d) She uses an outrageously inflammatory or inappropriate word/phrase beyond what many would consider a "normal" expletive. (i.e. normal = sh*t!, d*mn!, cr*p!)


David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Define foul language

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Define foul language

In 1964, Judge Potter Stewart once established the legal definition of hard-core pornography, "I know it when I see it."

I pretty much apply the same thumbrule with regards to foul language. If it makes my skin crawl, if it seems completely out-of-place, if it seems unusual or completely inappropriate ... then it's foul language.

That standard may be different for different umpires.

Do I maintain a list of words that I consider "foul" ... no. Sometimes the tone or the context of the word makes it "foul", when it might otherwise have been dismissed as a slip of the tongue.

A shortstop who mutters "Sh*t!" under her breath when booting a groundball will probably result in my ignoring it. (I may make a comment to her to be careful what she says. It would just be between me and her. I would not make a spectacle of it.) The same utterance, when taking a third strike and staring at me in disbelief will probably get her tossed.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Define foul language

Such rules only work when they are local. When attempted even regionally, it can be problematic.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Such rules only work when they are local. When attempted even regionally, it can be problematic.

This is truer than most are willing to believe. We've been through this discussion before, and as far as I'm concerned, everything, even what one may consider profanity, must be taken completely in the context of which it is offered. I've seen umpires eject players for the use of the word "damn" (how many times is that word in the bible). I've even seen an umpire toss a player for "J.H.C.", NOT THE WORDS, just the letters. Religious context is almost a whole different issue.

As far as I'm concerned, umpires need to react more toward statements that begin with the word "you".

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Define foul language

If the league has predefined language rules, I stick with those.

Otherwise, I use what is "normal" language to the participants. Right or wrong, I would allow quite colorful language in a game of the "Harley Bikers" vs. the "Steel Worker's Local 937".

"Upstate Kindergarden Teachers" vs. "Main Street Quilters" have to hold their tongues.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

If the league has predefined language rules, I stick with those.

Otherwise, I use what is "normal" language to the participants. Right or wrong, I would allow quite colorful language in a game of the "Harley Bikers" vs. the "Steel Worker's Local 937".

"Upstate Kindergarden Teachers" vs. "Main Street Quilters" have to hold their tongues.

That's hilarious! Good team names!

That's pretty much what I do.

Like I said, if it seems inappropriate - it probably is.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Chess Ref]

When you talking about use of the word you can you give some examples of whats okay and whats not ?

1. You suck. not okay ?
2. you're strike zone stinks -not sure ?
3. you're horrible. -not okay ?

And then what actions do you take for these you comments that are inappropriate ?