Sort out this mess!!

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I also posted this on McGriff's.......but wanted MAXIMUM exposure..........

OK guys (and gals).........here is the play......got questioned by one of our local league's President regarding this one after my games tonight.

This is an actual situation that occured in a kid ball game (8U) Monday night......ASA rules.

I kinda got this information 2nd hand.......but this is the way it was told to me.......

My first disclaimer is......Thank GOD I was not umpiring this mess............

1 ump game.........

Score tied with the clock expired......

Home team has bases loaded with 1 out.

Batter hits fly ball to F1......all runners off at the crack (ping?) of the bat...........F1 makes the catch and is somewhat undecided what to do........parents/coaches/spectators all holler for her to throw the ball the 2nd (why 2nd I don't know).....she finally does for the appeal of the runner on 2nd leaving early......for the apparent 3rd out.........BUT......R1 on 3rd has already crossed the plate.......

Umpire being a smart fellow......tells scorekeeper that the run counts........but does not tell anyone else (according to this account).....

All runners and players leave the field expecting an ITB (International Tie Breaker) finish......

Once all of the players enter their dugouts, the lone ump calls it a win for the home team and leaves.......an apparent ****storm occurs after his exit and no-one knows what the heck is going on.

The league president.......and apparently no-one in the complex knows what to make of the situation......the umpires gone, declaring the home team the winner and EVERYONE KNOWS he is wrong! I even think that some our our umpire board members (who were calling there that night) commented that the run could NOT count.

As I said.......I caught this 2nd hand from our leagues President (we have 6 leagues in our association and I was umpiring in this one tonight).

This is how I explained the situation to this boards President.........

The fly ball out to F1 was the 2nd out and the subsequent throw to 2nd was an appeal of a runner leaving early.......if the appeal was made after the runner from 3rd crossed home plate.......the run was legal (even though she too left early)........and appeal for a runner leaving early is a time play and the run should count.......the defense could still nullify the run by appealing that the runner from 3rd left early for an advantageous 4th out.......but when all players went to their team area........the umpire saw no appeal coming.......called the ballgame and left the field.

I told this league President that the only thing I could have found fault with was the failure of the umpire to vocalize to all that the run counted.......but he may have.......I got this 2nd hand.........I PERSONALLY would have given every opportunity for the defense to make the proper appeal........but don't we have to give up at some point?

Again........thank GOD this was not in a game that I called.........how would y'all rule on this?

Comments appreciated......

This is a situation that goes to show you that those "obscure" things that we talk about REALLY CAN HAPPEN.

Joel

One note.........I know the umpire who made this call and I will get his side of the story and also post it.......AGAIN.....THANK GOD THIS WAS NOT MY GAME......

[Dakota]

Taking what was told to you about the events as complete, I'd say this umpire showed poor judgment (and in fact erred).

Not in his call, which was correct according to the events as described. But in his game management.

The dynamics and emotions of fastpitch are at their peak in this situation. Score tied & time expired. The home team knows they can avoid ITB if they can push across a run. The defense knows they must force ITB if they are to win.

Now is the time to sell the call, no matter what the call, even if it is just a routine third out, let alone a double play, where the run scores, and there remains the possibility of a 4th out appeal!

Wow! To just inform the scorekeeper & exit stage left?

If I had been a parent on the losing team, I would be furious. Even if the ruling by the umpire was correct (and it appears to be) I would feel cheated, because otherwise why did he end this game so silently?

[SamNVa]

I agree with Dakota. I think the ump got the call correct, but handled the situation poorly. He should have LOUDLY vocalized "THE RUN COUNTS" a couple of times then waited until the defense left the infield before leaving. In an 8U game I doubt they would have known about the 4th out appeal, but you have to give them the opportunity.

About the only good thing the ump did with this situation (besides getting the call right) was to disappear quickly as I'm sure there would have been an ugly confrontation.

Finally, I don't believe there is anything in the rules to justify a protest in this situation, so the result of the game should stand.

[Steve M]

Think I agree with all here, too. Joel, didn't you note someplace that this age group does not use the Infield Fly rule? If they did use it, that could change things. While the call was right, it appears PU was a little short on balls - musta left them on the plate at the end. He's gotta point to the plate and loudly state "Score that run" after he's called the other player out for leaving early. Then he's gotta stick around until the defense is off the field.

We all know that much of our credibility comes from the appearance we try to give that we are right on top of everything and have absolute command of rules and interpretations. This could well have given the appearance to all involved that theump was not in control, did not know for sure what he was doing, and that he snuck outta Dodge.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm sort of torn here.

While I agree the umpire routinely announces, loudly, that a run counts when it timing of the runner comes into play, there seems to be something wrong about him loudly announcing the run scores and then standing around the plate waiting for an appeal. After all, it isn't his job to put up a flare announcing something isn't finished. So far, everyone seems to be acting like he abused the poor little tikes in the field. What about the ones on offense? At this level, it is obviously a "coaching thing", cause the kids probably would have run off the infield anyhow since none of them are going to know about a 4th out appeal without a coach standing there directing them.

Just some thoughts here:

*At this age level, they should play seven and then head to McDonalds, Chuckie Cheese or whatever. Forget the score, it isn't important. And if it is, I don't want to be associated with that league.

*Instead of just shouting loudly, he should have turned toward both scorebooks and in a raised voice announce the run counts. When it comes right down to it, if they are going to worry about the score, the coach should be aware of what is happening on the field.

*Steve's reference to the exclusion of the IF at this age level must be local or something other than ASA. ASA notes no exclusions to the Infield Fly rule and for that matter, 10U is the youngest fastpitch age group recognized in the ASA rulebook.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Tx ASA recognizes 8U and below and even has special rules set aside for them (and even has State Championships)

IF is not recognized in the 8U age in TX.....but in this play it does not really matter.....I think?

I still have not gotten any input from teams or the umpire involved (and will likely not untill next week)

I agree with the all the posters that the U should have been a bit more adamant with his "run scores" call......it was poor game management on his part (If it happened as related to me......I have yet to talk to the umpire in question)

My next question is if this were to come up in your game.........as an umpire, do you coach a team into making the 4th out appeal......what do you do when the coach comes out to argue.......ignore him? Let him know he is on the right track....but not quite there.....??

ASA says that only players can make appeals............how far should we allow the coach to direct his players in this attempt.

My feeling is I am going to give a lot of leeway to the defense...........

Again........think the situation through and explain how you would have ended it?

Joel

[oppool]

Joel

Maybe I am missing something but dont see in what you been told that R1 even left 3rd base early and maybe that why everybody was yelling to throw it to 2nd also unless R1 left very early there is a chance since you have only 1 ump he might not even seen it since he did catch R2 leaving early his vision on F1 on the catch then straight out to R2 leaving early

My opinion is we should never gave the coach any clue there is a appeal situation still available. If the coach comes out yelling while the infielders are still in play than I believe it was Steve M that said ask the closest infielder what the coach was saying then if the infielder repeats the proper appeal ring it up but I dont believe we should ever gave it away

My end of the game routine is same as end of any inning I wait till the fielders leave the playing area and then return balls and get my stuff ready meet my partner by the dugout we are leaving from and exit the field. Once the infielders leave the field of play coach yelling or not all appeals are over with.

At the end of this game in this situation the blue should have verbilize the run counts, verified the score with the scorekeeper and verbilize the final score and BALL GAME

Just my thoughts


Don



[Edited by oppool on Apr 13th, 2001 at 11:56 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Don,

The thread said that all runners were off with the crack (ping?) of the bat. No where did it say any of them returned to tag, so to me, all of them are fair game for an appeal.

Maybe all the moms and pops forgot there was a runner on third since she was probably already across the plate and not in the viewing range of the spectators.

[oppool]

Mike,

Thanks for the correction this ole man needs to learn to read better I guess.

Also agree with you on the point at this age this whole miss shouldn't even be coming up throw the score away and let the players have nothing but fun.

Only other thought on this at this age maybe they should let the coaches handle the appeals.


Have a good Easter

Don