protocol during pitching change

[John Robertson]

During a game last night my partner said something I had never heard before.

I was working the plate. In the bottom of the fifth inning, the defensive team made a mid-inning pitching change. In my experience in Ontario, it is customary for the base umpire to count the new pitcher's warm-up pitches and then inform the new pitcher of the game situation (e.g. how many out, where the baserunners are, and what the count on the batter is). When my partner didn't give the pitcher the "update" I did it and the game proceeded.

At the end of the inning I asked my partner about this and he said we were not supposed to inform the new pitcher about the number of outs, where the baserunners are, and so forth, because it is "considered coaching." This was news to me. Virtually every umpire I know does this as a matter of protocol. As I recall, years ago I was told at a clinic to definitely do this.

So my question is this: Are we supposed to tell a new pitcher where the baserunners are and how many outs there are, or is it just a falsehood that's been accepted over the years?

[U_of_I_Blue]

I make it a habit of giving the count and outs, I don't give the locations of the baserunners as anyone who isn't blind can figure out where they are at. I will do this anytime there is a long delay, i.e. pitching change, re-setting home plate, replacing a base, injury etc.

-Josh

[Dakota]

Originally posted by U_of_I_Blue
I make it a habit of giving the count and outs, I don't give the locations of the baserunners as anyone who isn't blind can figure out where they are at. I will do this anytime there is a long delay, i.e. pitching change, re-setting home plate, replacing a base, injury etc.

-Josh

Me, too. Besides, the catcher (if she is experienced) will also give the outs as well as the location of base runners, where the infield play should be, etc.

[Andy]

I think that you will find that this particular protocol will vary by region or even by individual. I don't believe that it is a documented practice in any umpire manual that I have seen.

I will usually follow the protocol that you describe, John, for this reason.

If this is a mid-inning pitching change, the PU is probably busy verifying the substitution with the defensive coach, or if it is just a position switch (ie F5 will pitch and F1 will play third), noting the line up card of the new pitcher in case the team wants to use a courtesy runner.

The BU doesn't have anything else to do, so s/he may as well count the warmup pitches and let the new pitcher know the game situation, especially if she is just coming in the game from the bullpen. Of course she can see who the runners on base are, but what does it hurt to say....2-2 count on the batter, 1 out, runners at first and second?

[mcrowder]

Throw me in for the first vote in the "Don't do that - it's coaching" category. I clinic my guys not to do this. I do, however, tell them that after any long delay, PU should hold up the number of outs just before making the ball live, and say it loud enough for batter and catcher. If there is a count after a delay like this, I would signal it as well.

To me - the practice of having BU walking out to the mound, out of position, to do this is annoying and delaying. And if you feel it's important information to impart after a delay, why don't you walk around the bases mentioning it to the runners as well? I think this looks VERY unprofessional. When I see someone I'm working with for the first time do this, I know he's going to be one of those guys who has to come visit with me between every half inning - something else that looks very unprofessional.

[IRISHMAFIA]

You would think that for all the time the coach spends with the new pitcher during warm-ups, s/he would give the pitcher the situation s/he just dumped in their pitcher's lap.

Give outs and count, that's it.

If the coaches have a problem with that, ask them why they are there if they are not going to do their job

[orioles35]

If I'm BU during pitching changes, I'm out on the outfield grass. Players should know the rules and the situation, and I don't feel we're there to make sure they know (unless they ask specifically).

I am also not a big fan of the umpire discussions every half inning.

[U_of_I_Blue]

Actually, I should have clarified that. I do not do this as a base umpire. My job out there is to call out and safe, occasionally an illegal pitch, maybe some obs. and interference, and give the outs to a player if requested. I agree the base umpire should be out in shallow outfield during a change.

It is when I am plate umpire that I do this. Hold up the number of outs while announcing it and then announce and signal the count.

Oriole-I agree with you on the chat between innings.

-Josh

[BuggBob]

I too for years would tell the new pitcher the game situation and quickly move to my required position. However this year our clinician pointed this out as coaching -- so now I don't do it. So for the first time since I have been umpiring I would stay in my current position, count the pitches and signal to the plate umpire when the pitcher was ready. I got to say it looked and felt more professional. Moving forward to games from last night. My games last night were low (LOW LOW) level rec, with a lot of confused players and coaches. During the pitching change, I did go and tell the pitcher the game situation, which as it turns out she didn't know (which in itself makes no since as she was playing the shortstop). We all work games at variety of levels, I would suggest for Tournament Teams and very well coached teams stay out of it. But for the rec teams what does it hurt to tell them the game situation.

Bob

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Telling where base runners,etc are is 'coaching'...letting everyone know the count/outs,after ANY break in play is NOT.....especially where there is no scoreboard,it is a common courtesy!

[mcrowder]

Yes, blue... but don't wander out to the mound to do it. Give the outs and count from behind the plate. For everyone. Walking out to the mound to handhold the pitcher is bush. Doing it as BU is worse.

[Steve M]

When play is ready to resume after the change, as PU I will give the count. I do not offer the number of outs, but will respond if asked. As BU, I am counting pitches and when the PU is done with paperwork, I will flash my partner the number of warmup pitches taken so far.

Now, when working rec level games, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. For example, as BU, I stopped a game, brought the defensive coach to the circle and explained to coach & pitcher why such & such was an illegal pitch and that for now, we were going to just fix it. Those games are pretty much like JV games - usually having players, coaches, and umpires there to learn.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Didn't the defensive coach make the pitching change? If the coach can't tell the substitute pitcher the situation, I can't think of a reason why I should.

Pretty sure (haven't checked the manual) that NCAA specifically addresses this as an example of things NOT to do.

[noobie]

Originally posted by Steve M
Now, when working rec level games, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. For example, as BU, I stopped a game, brought the defensive coach to the circle and explained to coach & pitcher why such & such was an illegal pitch and that for now, we were going to just fix it. Those games are pretty much like JV games - usually having players, coaches, and umpires there to learn.

Don't forget us guys/gals who are here to learn, either. There's a big difference between local P&R games & tournament level games. The difference between "coaching" and not can be as simple as providing the information from behind the plate for a PU: this is different than "don't". Thanks, Steve ... yours was one of the clearer posts in this thread.

I appreciate all these remarks, I really do. Just don't confuse us rookies, ok? Remember us

Personally, as PU, I feel like I'm giving the out counts far too often ... as in once each batter change. That's probably pushing the bounds into coaching, so I'm working on reducing that frequency. In local P&R games, nobody seems to object ... it just feels wrong, so it probably is.

Ya know, I can read the rule book all day, and I can know what it says inside and out. Until I get a chance to apply this to real life, it's all trivia. The stuff for which there are no rules -- like "don't coach" -- is much harder to learn. Clinics help, but they're sometimes more opinion and "what works for the clinician". All tips help. I love them. Thanks!

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by noobie

[i]Originally posted by S
Personally, as PU, I feel like I'm giving the out counts far too often ... as in once each batter change. That's probably pushing the bounds into coaching, so I'm working on reducing that frequency. In local P&R games, nobody seems to object ... it just feels wrong, so it probably is.

Ya know, I can read the rule book all day, and I can know what it says inside and out. Until I get a chance to apply this to real life, it's all trivia. The stuff for which there are no rules -- like "don't coach" -- is much harder to learn. Clinics help, but they're sometimes more opinion and "what works for the clinician". All tips help. I love them. Thanks!

On the mens rec level, I usually, very sotto voce remind the catcher/batter the out...usually the catcher is screaming it anyways..and the batter ALWAYS asks...so I feel I am just keeping the unnecessary covo down to a minimum..after any break which happens in the middle of an AB, I raise my hands/fingers for my partner....and anyone else paying attention...but they ask anyways...sigh....