ASA Profanity - Slow Pitch Men's Recreational

[HM1 Hammonds]

Need some opinions: I am a 2d year umpire and feel comfortable with my on field performance. On Monday evenings, I have men's slow pitch recreational league.
The ASA has a new rule on profanity. The coaches/captains have been advised of this rule by me personally and I have enforced it with consistency.
My rule of thumb to the coaches is "I can't call what I can't see. If I don't hear it, it was never said. (In regards to profanity)If you have to ask don't say it or If you can't say it around mom don't say it."
I give the coach an opportunity to correct the situation before giving the team warning regarding profanity. They have been told that the warning precedes the assessment of an "out" when they are at the plate.
In one game, I assessed the out when they came to bat. I explained to the coach the action that caused the assessment. One of his players asked me if he could say "Bull Crap!" and I responded by assessing the second out. After that point there was no more profanity from that team.
Please share your thoughts on this incident. Again, I am comfortable with my handling of the situation. I just would appreciate any thoughts.

[mcrowder]

The ASA does NOT have a rule about profanity. This is a local rule, as is the enforcement you describe.

I don't think "Bull Crap" would make it the profanity list on 95% of the people I know. However, a player saying that directly to an umpire about one of their calls is likely to bring up the ASA unsportsmanlike conduct rule, and not warrant an out, but maybe warrant an ejection.

"Can I say, 'Bull Crap'?"

"Yes, you can say it to your heart's content in your car. You're gone."

[chuck chopper]

Depends on the league. Leagues where all the family members are watching & its supposed to be a friendly atmosphere.. allow nothing.
.
Some leagues where its just the guys, allow a little mumbling to themselves. (you gotta learn what not to hear)
.
HOWEVER This notion about a warning ?, cover it during the ground rules & tell them "THIS IS your warning"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Hello, remember me?

This is a perfect example of what happens when you try to implement such a broad-sweeping subjective rule which involves making the umpire the Language Police!

What would an umpire know how I speak to my mother or how she speaks to me?

To laden the umpire with such a task is ludicrous. If the league doesn't care for some of the language and wants to dictate to their guest the type of world they prefer, have THEM place a rep at each game to enforce it, 'cause it isn't going to be my job as the umpire.

[BuggBob]

The Washington state casual profanity rule, clearly states a warning to the offending team, next occurrence results in the next battery being called out. So if Team A cusses and gets a warning, Team B has not cussed does not have a warning. When team got used to this rule the sailor talk got the 'ol heave hoe.

[mcrowder]

Does it clearly define exactly which words are to be considered profanity? Didn't think so.

Does it define the difference between a word used in a profane way, and one used otherwise? (Can a player say that he was the butt of a joke?)

This is so subjective that it has no place being arbited by the umpire. Let USC rules take care of it.

[JEL]

Coach; "Why are you ejecting me? I didn't swear or cuss!"

Me; "It's not WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it!"


Been there, done that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by JEL
Coach; "Why are you ejecting me? I didn't swear or cuss!"

Me; "It's not WHAT you said, it's HOW you said it!"


Been there, done that.

Whoa, there! This is not about profanity specifically toward an official, but in general.

OTOH, I believe the most noticeable buzz word when addressing an umpire isn't anything close to profanity, but a statement beginning with the word "You...."

[LIIRISHMAN]

Some players today bring their wive and children to the game.Many leagues and towns have profanity policies in place.The problem lies in where we as umpires literally become the "profanity Police".I for one will speak about language at my pregame.In the heat of a game will I be forced to throw a guy out because he said S#*# aftere a fly ball out to kill a rally?That's why policies such as this won't work unless we put muzzles on the players.Come to think of it that's not a bad idea! LOL

[Dakota]

I do understand your Mike's point about being the Language Police and why he doesn't approve, but this is really no different from any other judgment call. Umpires can show poor judgment with any rule enforcement.

I have no issue with our state's casual profanity / family atmosphere rule. Enforcement is a judgment. I'll give a couple of examples below (I've posted about them before).

I do not think a list of words would help at all. To paraphrase a Supreme Court Justice, "you'll know it when you hear it." Much depends on the community and the situation. It is not black and white.

The closest I've come to enforcing the penalty of our rule (out assessed) is to warn a couple of coaches. They were clearly expressing themselves in the way to which they were accustomed (truely "casual" profanity) as opposed to an emotional cussing out. Nonetheless, they were coaches of 12U teams. Example: 12U team, infield grounder goes between the legs of the F4. Defensive coach (a woman) says in a normal conversational tone (load enough for me to hear, but not shouting) "S---". I remind her of the casual profanity rule. She apologizes. Game goes on.

I've also completely ignored an player dropping the F-bomb. As I said, judgment is required. 18U national qualifier. I'm on the bases in "C". Fly ball to left field. F7 is going for the ball. It drops in front of her and she misses snagging it and has to chase it down. A run scores and the BR ends up on 2nd. I'm back getting set in "C" again. F8 says to F7, "Nice play." F7 says to F8, "F--- you." As I said, I ignored it (except for the smile on my face.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


I do not think a list of words would help at all. To paraphrase a Supreme Court Justice, "you'll know it when you hear it." Much depends on the community and the situation. It is not black and white.

Hence part of the problem. Who determines what the community standards are? Who is right or wrong? Has everyone always agreed with their neighbors on every issue?

Anyone have issues with teams from urban settings playing out in the suburban area? Now there is a situation which would be fun trying to apply a community standard.

Society is a myth. It only exist because holier-than-thous perpetuate it's so-called standards to justify their effort to control others.

Okay, I'm sorry. Way to preachy and I'm sure everyone has gotten my point. I'll shut up now.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
to justify their effort to control others.

I said I understand your point, and the rule can be poorly applied, no doubt, by an umpire trying to control others. I recall a story posted awhile ago on this topic of a moralistic umpire trying to turn the softball diamond into a sanctuary. That umpire should be dealt with the same way any OO umpire is dealt with.

However, in the case of the rule writers here, I believe it was motivated by a desire to protect children and to keep softball a family recreational sport. Sure, it is nannyism, but mostly harmless and well-intentioned.

As to your inner-city team playing in the suburbs, the "community" in this case is the suburbs. Could an umpire unfairly penalize the city team for merely talking like they always talk? Sure. But I would hope the umpire would be aware enough to recognize that his first step should be exlaining the situation to the city coach and the kinds of behavior standards expected. And to also turn down his hearing aid just a notch. Would all umpires do that? Probably not, but then not all umpires call OBS, INT, or IFR correctly, either.

[dsimp8]

Wow. Just 3 hrs ago I threw out two people (father and son) in a church league game. For some reason the Park Authority has already drawn up their tournament bracket which begins next Tuesday. while they still have games Thursday left. Anyway,home team is getting beat 17-1 in the bottom of the 2nd inning. #2 (the son) stands there and takes 3 strikes-the first 2 were right down the middle and 3 was on the inside corner. He then proceeded to stand in the box mouth wide open. I ignore it. As I walk ou to take my position along the baseline he says "That's horible and you're horrible." Bam. He's gone. Coach gets mad at him for being thrown out but then says that they can still play after I call "ballgame" since they do not have a sub. He said,"We can drp from 11 to 10?" I say,"no". He then says ,"Can I get someone from the stands to come in?" I tell him that if he's not on the lineup card as a sub,he cannot come into the game. Then,#7 (the father) comes over to me as I and my partner are walking off the field and reaches out to shake my hand and he says,"It was a horrible call." I just shook his hand and kept walking to which he then said,"Yeah,you know I'm right.Keep walking" Bam! He's gone. He says I can't throw him out after the game and I tell him that as long as I'm on the field,I'm still in charge." Needless to say,they are automatically gone for two games. They both came up and apologized later (on their way out of the park)which I respected since it wasn't the usual half a$$ed apology. That or they were pretty good actors(g)

[debeau]

Hell Irishmafia Ive got to agree with you (damn I swore thats me gone ).
We arnt profanity police .
And as for dsimp8 . What was said that warranted an ejection . Maybe it was a horrible call and hey after a stand up strike out he was frustrated .
As umpires we have to be thick skinned , if we arnt we wont survive .
Personally if a player swears its up to tornament directors or league organisers ,, but if they swear directly at me then they are gone .
I suppose I could stretch rule 10(9) 1 ISF Rules .
Players and managers may not make disparaging or insulting remarks to players , spectators officials or commit other remarks that could be seen as unsportsman like .
Penalty is removal or ejection .

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by debeau
Hell Irishmafia Ive got to agree with you (damn I swore thats me gone ).
We arnt profanity police .
And as for dsimp8 . What was said that warranted an ejection . Maybe it was a horrible call and hey after a stand up strike out he was frustrated .
As umpires we have to be thick skinned , if we arnt we wont survive .
Personally if a player swears its up to tornament directors or league organisers ,, but if they swear directly at me then they are gone .
I suppose I could stretch rule 10(9) 1 ISF Rules .
Players and managers may not make disparaging or insulting remarks to players , spectators officials or commit other remarks that could be seen as unsportsman like .
Penalty is removal or ejection .

The player got ejected for making it personal. Like I said, the biggest buzz word to any sports official is "you". It is also how and where it is stated. The father carried this to a personal level by offering a hand and then continuing the argument in which was an obvious attempt to degrade the umpire in front of players, fans and colleague.

Being "thick skinned" is ridiculous. Yes, you shouldn't be looking for trouble and avoid it when possible. However, an umpire who blindly turns away from public abuse is doing no one any favors. Just like children, those players and coaches who act like idiots will continue to do so until it is addressed. And, no, they will not tone it down themselves. Then some rookies run into these idiots and think, "Hell, they don't pay me enough for this." Gone. Just lost an umpire. We don't need to lose umpires to anything other than old age.

I recruit 365 days a year and 9 of 10 people I approach simply state that they will have nothing to do with umpiring because, "You guys take too much ****". So, as long as umpires continue to be "thick skinned" and absorb the abuse, the ranks of umpiring will diminish and the abuse will escalate to attacks on property and person. If you think I'm kidding, I have already had two umpires in this area, one hit with an intentionally thrown ball and the other with the windows to their car shattered. Both of them are the "nice guy" type of umpire who will hesistate ejecting a player or coach, and if they do, will not report it to the league for appropriate action.

Rant off!