Verbal INT??

[tcannizzo]

OK, I won't play with the words, but if I understand correctly, you would call Spectator Interference, if a spectator called "FOUL BALL", even though the ball might be Fair, and the defensive player got confused in executing the defensive play?

[SRW]

There's nothing there about spectator VERBAL interference... only PHYSICAL interference. Fans can say whatever they want until they become a team member or an offensive player.

[tzme415]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
OK, I won't play with the words, but if I understand correctly, you would call Spectator Interference, if a spectator called "FOUL BALL", even though the ball might be Fair, and the defensive player got confused in executing the defensive play?

I'm only saying that the rules allow for their to be Spectator Interference, not Spectator Obstruction. As far as calling interference if a spectator calls "FOUL BALL", even though the ball is fair; I doubt I would call it. Spectators yell things all the time, unless they get physically involved in the game, I tend to ignore them. I have enough to concentrate on in the game without worrying about what the spectators are doing.

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by SRW
There's nothing there about spectator VERBAL interference... only PHYSICAL interference. Fans can say whatever they want until they become a team member or an offensive player.

Where in the rule does it say PHYSICAL interference?

Where in the rule does it preclude VERBAL interference?

It does say spectator and it does say confuse.

And you raise a veddy interestink point about a spectator morphing into a team member. Coaches who give instruction must be in the dugout. If a spectator is giving instruction, then I would judge the spectator to be a team member at that point, and no longer a spectator.

spectator (from http://www.dictionary.com)

n 1: a close observer; someone who looks at something (such as an exhibition of some kind); "the spectators applauded the performance"; "television viewers"; "sky watchers discovered a new star" [syn: witness, viewer, watcher, looker

Any action that impedes, hinders or confuses a player to is no longer an "observer". They become a team member, which puts them subject to OBS.

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by tzme415

... As far as calling interference if a spectator calls "FOUL BALL", even though the ball is fair; I doubt I would call it. Spectators yell things all the time, unless they get physically involved in the game, I tend to ignore them. I have enough to concentrate on in the game without worrying about what the spectators are doing.

So, you would knowingly ignore a rule?

[Dakota]

You're making a real stretch to try to define a loud-mouthed and possibly unsporting spectator as a team member.

Back to the original scenario, while I sympathize with the actions of the umpires, and agree that it was probably "fair" I don't see where it is supported by the rules.

The rules do cover spectator interference, even when it is pseudo-obstruction - that is, bases may be awarded. But this is physical intrusion into the game, not yelling from the stands.

Barring local rules regulating fan behavior and consequences, I think your only recourse is to suspend the game until the park officials deal with the disruptive fan. As far as the play itself, it stands. Runners should be paying attention to their coaches, not to voices from behind.

[tcannizzo]

....just because you have too much to concentrate on and worry about??????

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by Dakota
You're making a real stretch to try to define a loud-mouthed and possibly unsporting spectator as a team member.

Yes I am.

[SRW]

** Message deleted. Have a nice day. **

[Edited by SRW on May 23rd, 2005 at 04:27 PM]

[tzme415]

Ok, you got me. I guess everytime a spectator says anything to the defense, I should call interference. If a defensive player is going for a ball and the fans yell "I got it" and the defensive player misses the ball...sorry interference...Batters Out. This would encourage the defensive fans to yell at their own players to get outs on the offense. After all how can I tell whos spectators are whos. I'm sorry, but there are things that are allowed in the rules that require a bit of judgement. I can throw players out for questioning balls and strikes, but if a catcher says to his pitcher "That looked good to me" or I hear from the bench "Come on blue that pitch was high"...I'm not throwing anyone out unless it gets to be just about every pitch although the rules 'ALLOW for IT'.

[Edited by tzme415 on May 24th, 2005 at 08:13 AM]

[JEL]

Well there has certainly been some interesting responses on this one.

I was un-swayed by the decision as rendered on the field Saturday, I didn't then nor now see any justification for the call as made. The arguement of "in fairness" was brought up, but as CecilOne pointed out, this didn't slow the defense from making the play. Coachfanmom also pointed out the D3K instance where her girls are taught to follow the base coaches instruction. I have seen many plays (as I'm sure we all have) where a dead ball is called andplay doesn't cease, or IF is called but nobody seems to hear it. As Mike notes unless a fan physically hinders play, I can not justify trying to rectify a mis-cue by a player. If I as an umpire have to ignore comments from the stands, and do ignore them, shouldn't the players also?

What really got me to wondering about this was not was the right call made (it wasn't), but who made it. This one was called by our area UIC, and supported by the tornament UIC and tournament director! I suppose even in the heat of battle even the boss can get one wrong!

[coachfanmom]

That was a call from the "heart" and not the "mind"......but it is refreshing to know that you "blues" do have a "heart"

[officialtony]

Are we presuming that the " spectator " who called " Foul Ball " was screaming to decieve the defense? Was the spectator, in fact just telling the batter that the ball was foul so she could go back and bat again - with no intent to change the outcome of the at bat?
If you really want to stretch the outcome by your call, call Verbal Interfence on the Offensive dugout claiming you heard the " foul ball " call come from that direction. Let the Offensive Coach deal with the fan who cost him a hit/out.( I cite 2-32 here ).
Or . . . . the other option is to call Verbal Obstruction on the defensive dugout claiming you heard the " foul ball " call come from THEIR direction, attempting to confuse B1 so they could get the out.
( I cite 2-36 here ).
Who do you want to punish and send the message to - offense or defense?
Do you really know who is at fault here?
This was clearly a HTBT play.
What it can never be is a " do over ".
Nowhere in the book is there an allowance for a " do over ".

Just offering more to chew on.

Just my humble opinion.

[Edited by officialtony on May 24th, 2005 at 09:28 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

Spectator interference is specifically indentified, defined and remedied in 8.2.N, 8.5.L and POE #33. In each and every instance it involves the spectator trespassing into the field of play.

The umpire does not have any authority on what happens outside the fence that doesn't involve a coach, player or an otherwise defined team member.

[officialtony]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA
__________________________________________________ _____
" Spectator interference is specifically indentified, defined and remedied in 8.2.N, 8.5.L and POE #33. In each and every instance it involves the spectator trespassing into the field of play. "
__________________________________________________ _____

Mike,
Were you responding to my post?
If so, the intent of my post was to suggest some remedies to the initial thread posted. Not having been there, I would not venture a guess as to what I would have done. What I would NOT do is get into a discussion with a fan. I might let the coaches know that if a fan repeatedly attempts to alter the course of play by those tactics, the teams will suffer the consequences by my decisions. I do have the authority to administer penalties upon teams that Obstruct or Interfere. And I can make that case on any calls that I deem came from the dugouts on either side - or their team members.


__________________________________________________ _____
" The umpire does not have any authority on what happens outside the fence that doesn't involve a coach, player or an otherwise defined team member. "

__________________________________________________ _____
As far as authority outside the fence - I will take issue with that statement.
If a fan repeatedly attempts to distract or irritate members of either team, I can and will have them removed from the park or cease play until they do.
I claim that authority under 10-1-6 . . .
" The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsporting conduct is absolute. "
I think that is quite clear.

If you were not responding to my post, then excuse my response.

Thanks.

[Edited by officialtony on May 24th, 2005 at 10:39 AM]