Verbal INT??

[JEL]

Here is a situation which occured this weekend. ASA tourney, girls FP.

Batter lays down a bunt on or close to the line and runs for 1B. PU, nor BU say a word, don't know if PU ever pointed fair. A very loud fan directly behind the backstop yells "FOUL BALL". BU said runner slowed, but continued on to 1B where she was thrown out. Offensive coach complained that there was "verbal interference" by the fan causing the runner to slow, thus causing the out. In the end, the crew bought the arguement and returned the batter to hit, basically a "do-over". There was an ensuing argument of course from the defense, to no avail.

When told about this situation, my initial response was I no of no basis to call verbal INT on a fan. I've searched, but still can't justify this call. Can a fan commit an act which would result in a verbal INT/OBS call?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by JEL
Here is a situation which occured this weekend. ASA tourney, girls FP.

Batter lays down a bunt on or close to the line and runs for 1B. PU, nor BU say a word, don't know if PU ever pointed fair. A very loud fan directly behind the backstop yells "FOUL BALL". BU said runner slowed, but continued on to 1B where she was thrown out. Offensive coach complained that there was "verbal interference" by the fan causing the runner to slow, thus causing the out. In the end, the crew bought the arguement and returned the batter to hit, basically a "do-over". There was an ensuing argument of course from the defense, to no avail.

When told about this situation, my initial response was I no of no basis to call verbal INT on a fan. I've searched, but still can't justify this call. Can a fan commit an act which would result in a verbal INT/OBS call?

Other than reaching inside the fence and interfering with a play, there is no rule or umpire authority as it applies to non-participants.

Mike,

What's the difference between a fan yelling "foul ball" and a fan at a football or basketball game blowing a whistle? There has to be some kind of remedy when a fan tries to screw with someone like this.

[coachfanmom]

That's why I always teach my girls that when the ball is hit, you run like you are being chased by your worst enemy to first base until your first base coach tells you to stop....which is never.....even on a strike out when there isn't a D3k in play, they still run the distance full strength.

Hope everyone had a productive weekend!

[mcrowder]

Ref Ump - the difference is that there is no rule in softball to address this, while there is a specific rule in football and basketball that addresses the whistle situation.

Also - if a fan blows a whistle in a football game, and some kids stop while others don't, you have a serious safety-related problem. So thus the rule that the play should be killed in that situation.

[UmpireErnie]

Def coach should have protested umpires decision as a misaplication of the interference rule. As Mike pointed out under ASA code interference by a fan can only be by fan reaching into or entering the feild of play/live ball area.

Had a "simmilar but different" fan involvement incident in a High School game under NFHS rules this past Friday night.

Home coach comes to me and complain that a fan standing behind the screen behind home plate is the visiting team's F1's dad and he was a coach and he was giving signs to his DD. Under FED rules coaches and team members must be on the bench when not on the feild, batting, on-deck, etc.

I have never seen "Dad" on the bench as a member of the visiting teams coaching staff all season, so as far as I know he is just a "fan" and he can give all the signals he wants. I went the the visiting team's head coach and asked him point blank if F1's dad was a member of his teams' coaching staff and he denied it. I told Home coach I had no reason to consider him ("Dad") as anything but a fan and free to do as he pleases. I told my partner about it between innings and we watched to see if there was any contact between the visiting team coaching staff and "Dad" but there was not.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
Mike,

What's the difference between a fan yelling "foul ball" and a fan at a football or basketball game blowing a whistle? There has to be some kind of remedy when a fan tries to screw with someone like this.

mcrowder's response aside, which provided a good example, who really gives a damn what they do in other sports?

I'm working ASA softball and will apply their rules. Talk about asking for a protest, this would qualify.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by JEL
... snip ... Offensive coach complained that there was "verbal interference" by the fan causing the runner to slow, thus causing the out. In the end, the crew bought the arguement and returned the batter to hit, basically a "do-over". There was an ensuing argument of course from the defense, to no avail.

Really bad, especially TWO umpires falling for it.
Besides, it would be OBS if it affected the offense, INT only if it affected the defense.
Someone should congratulate the fielders who made the play for not listening.


[Edited by CecilOne on May 23rd, 2005 at 11:59 AM]

Mike,

You sound like noone who does softball does any other sports. I was just trying to draw a parallel between softball and another sport, but you made a mockery of it. Why are you like this? You need to deflate that ego of yours, especially if you want to help other umpires on the board understand the rules, etc.

Maybe you're one of the reasons I notice the same people post over and over, and others post once or twice and then seem to disappear.

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
. . .I'm working ASA softball and will apply their rules. Talk about asking for a protest, this would qualify.

Why am I confused here?

Rule 1 - Definitions
Interference. Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member, umpire or spectator that impedes, hinders, or confuses a defensive player attempting to execute a play. Contact is not necessary.

By the spectator calling "FOUL BALL", I have Spectator Interference as in my judgement, that impeded the defensive player in executing her play.

Protest lost. At least according to the book.

[tzme415]

Originally posted by tcannizzo

Why am I confused here?

Rule 1 - Definitions
Interference. Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member, umpire or spectator that impedes, hinders, or confuses a defensive player attempting to execute a play. Contact is not necessary.

By the spectator calling "FOUL BALL", I have Spectator Interference as in my judgement, that impeded the defensive player in executing her play.

Protest lost. At least according to the book.

I think the confusion is in the wording. In the situation starting this thread the umpires ruled there was in some sense Verbal Obstruction, not Interference. The ASA rules as far as I can tell do not support this. There can be Verbal Interference that prevents a defensive player from making a play, but not Verbal Obstruction that prevents the offensive from running.

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by tzme415

I think the confusion is in the wording. In the situation starting this thread the umpires ruled there was in some sense Verbal Obstruction, not Interference. The ASA rules as far as I can tell do not support this. There can be Verbal Interference that prevents a defensive player from making a play, but not Verbal Obstruction that prevents the offensive from running.

Now I am confused by your wording. Are you saying that only an "offensive spectator" can be guilty? How do you determine which type of spectator?

Also, the ASA rule refers to an umpire. Does that mean only an "offensive umpire" can be guilty of umpire interference?

In the words of the great soldier Artie Shaw: "Veddy Interestink!"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
Mike,

You sound like noone who does softball does any other sports. I was just trying to draw a parallel between softball and another sport, but you made a mockery of it. Why are you like this? You need to deflate that ego of yours, especially if you want to help other umpires on the board understand the rules, etc.

Maybe you're one of the reasons I notice the same people post over and over, and others post once or twice and then seem to disappear.

Let's try this again. The discussion is softball. Comparing different stick, ball and base games is one thing. Using a completely different outside source is another. If for no other reason, I would object to the comparisons just so I wouldn't have to hear some idiot coach or player scream, "but, Blue, the fielder's feet were in bounds!". And that happens more than a half-dozen times a season.

I don't care what other sports do because it has no affect on the game we are discussing. There are enough misinformed individuals running around the softball community as it is. The last thing we need as umpires is to dilute the understanding of the rules more than presently exist.

It has nothing to do with ego. It has to do with providing accurate information to those who want to learn.

[mcrowder]

TCannizzo - interference is, by definition (the one you copied here) an act that negatively affects THE DEFENSE. Obstruction is an act that negatively affects the OFFENSE. Now go look at the definition of Obstruction. Do you see the word Spectator?

Obstruction is not simply - "Interference by the defense" - it's a completely different rule.

[tzme415]

Originally posted by tcannizzo

Now I am confused by your wording. Are you saying that only an "offensive spectator" can be guilty? How do you determine which type of spectator?

Also, the ASA rule refers to an umpire. Does that mean only an "offensive umpire" can be guilty of umpire interference?

In the words of the great soldier Artie Shaw: "Veddy Interestink!"

I'm not saying which type of spectator, you are quoting the interference rule (which only applies to a defensive player making a play). If you read the initial situation, the defense made the play, it was the runner who stopped. The obstruction rule does not allow for a spectator to cause obstruction (verbally or otherwise). The same can be said of an umpire.