unusual plays

[David Emerling]

I was watching my daughters games today in a high school tournament and two unusual plays occurred.

Play #1: International Tie Breaker. R1 & R2. Two outs. Catcher picks off R1 to end the inning. WHO is the runner at 2nd to begin the next inning for this team?

Play #2: R2, 1 out. Shot hit out to left field. R2 is off on contact, assuming it will drop. F7 makes a great catch. R2 was obstructed by F6 during her initial advance. R2 is rounding 3rd when the ball is caught and the return throw easily doubles her up. The umpires called her out claiming, "She would've been out anyway." Really?

Comments?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[JEL]

#1, The last person scheduled to bat in next inning. (assuming your state has not adopted some other form of ITB)


#2 Dumb call.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by JEL
#1, The last person scheduled to bat in next inning. (assuming your state has not adopted some other form of ITB)

So the batter who was at-bat when the pickoff occurred, misses her turn to bat and is placed at 2nd in the next inning?

#2 Dumb call.

Agreed.

David Emerling
Memphis, Tn

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Emerling

So the batter who was at-bat when the pickoff occurred, misses her turn to bat and is placed at 2nd in the next inning?

No. She should be the first batter in the next inning. As JEL said, the runner placed on second would be the person scheduled to bat last in the next inning.

[mo99]

Play # 1: The player who made the last out in the batting order prior to the player who was at bat when the pick off happened.

Play # 2: Dumb explanation of his call,but I would still have an out at second.I would protect R2 between second and third base,but once she achieved third and rounded it,I would no longer protect her all the way back to second.If she stopped before reaching third and was thrown out going back to second base,I would enforce the obstruction and put her on second base.

Jeff
NCAA Umpire
NFHS Umpire
ASA Umpire

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by mo99
Play # 1: The player who made the last out in the batting order prior to the player who was at bat when the pick off happened.

My understanding is that this is the commonly referred to mis-wording of this rule that confuses so many people. It is not the "last out" but rather the last person scheduled to bat in the inning. Example, number 5 batter leading off? Then number 4 batter goes to second.

[JEL]

Well, I will stay with the #1 answer, but gotta flip flop on #2. The fact the runner reached 3B has no bearing.

I was reasoning that the obstructed runner could in no circumstances "be called out between the bases where obstructed". Per ASA POE 36 the runner could be called out for leaving early if properly appealed. Fed probably is the same....still searching

Wasn't a dumb call after all. Call was right, reasoning was wrong!

[Ed Maeder]

This is one of the exceptions that a runner may be called out after being obstructed. It applies to both Federation rules and ASA rules. Federation 8-4-3b Exceptions, ASA 8-5-B Exceptions.

[Steve M]

David,
Just to reword the previous answers to # 1 a bit - he runner who starts on 2nd base will be the player that is scheduled to bat 9th in that half inning.

As for #2, keep in mind that in softball, the intent of the rule is to remove the effect of the obstruction - not to enforce a penalty (other than losing the out).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by David Emerling
I was watching my daughters games today in a high school tournament and two unusual plays occurred.

Play #1: International Tie Breaker. R1 & R2. Two outs. Catcher picks off R1 to end the inning. WHO is the runner at 2nd to begin the next inning for this team?

The runner placed on 2nd in the next offensive inning for this team will be the PLAYER who immediately precedes the batter who was in the box at the time of the pick-off

Play #2: R2, 1 out. Shot hit out to left field. R2 is off on contact, assuming it will drop. F7 makes a great catch. R2 was obstructed by F6 during her initial advance. R2 is rounding 3rd when the ball is caught and the return throw easily doubles her up. The umpires called her out claiming, "She would've been out anyway." Really?

On what base did R2 begin this play? Nevermind, doesn't make any difference. The call is correct. If anything, the obstruction would have benefitted the runner, not hurt her.

BTW, I don't think most umpires would consider these unusual plays.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Mar 27th, 2005 at 09:35 AM]

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

On what base did R2 begin this play? Nevermind, doesn't make any difference. The call is correct. If anything, the obstruction would have benefitted the runner, not hurt her.

BTW, I don't think most umpires would consider these unusual plays.
[/B]

When I use the term R2 - I mean it to imply "runner on 2nd."

I never could understand the FED convention for naming runners.

In FED you have to say, "R1 is on 3rd and R2 is on 1st" when it is so much clearer to say "R1 and R3 ..." Plus, you get a better picture of where each runner started which is often helpful in complex situations.

I agree that situation #1 is not difficult ... just unusual.

There does not seem to be a consensus in this forum as to the proper solution for #2, however. So, it might be more difficult (or unusual) than you give it credit for.

It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out between the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, unless she missed a base or left a base early."?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[WestMichBlue]

"It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out between the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, unless she missed a base or left a base early."?

Do you have any books David? Both ASA and NFHS have FIVE exceptions to the "cannot be put out between bases" rule.

a - reached base she would have been awarded; then after a subsequent play on a different runner, she is put out trying to advance.

b - properly appealed for missing a base

c - propperly appealed for leaving early

d - committing a act of interference

f - passing another runner.

WMB

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out between the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, unless she missed a base or left a base early."?

Do you have any books David? Both ASA and NFHS have FIVE exceptions to the "cannot be put out between bases" rule.

a - reached base she would have been awarded; then after a subsequent play on a different runner, she is put out trying to advance.

b - properly appealed for missing a base

c - propperly appealed for leaving early

d - committing a act of interference

f - passing another runner.

WMB

Well then, that would answer the question then - wouldn't it! [g]

You have to admit, the plays are somewhat unusual. You will go many games before having to address either of these issues. This is where knowing the rules is very helpful ... kind of like batting-out-of-order situations. The rules are clear, the chance to "practice" implementing those rules are rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"It begs the question: Can an obstructed runner be put out between the bases where she was obstructed?

Is the answer a categorical "No!" -or- "No, unless she missed a base or left a base early."?

Do you have any books David? Both ASA and NFHS have FIVE exceptions to the "cannot be put out between bases" rule.

a - reached base she would have been awarded; then after a subsequent play on a different runner, she is put out trying to advance.

b - properly appealed for missing a base

c - propperly appealed for leaving early

d - committing a act of interference

f - passing another runner.

WMB

What happened to e?????

[whiskers_ump]

Obstruction occurred between d & f, thus e was protected
until dead ball called.