What would you call?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Now I'm very confused. So in ASA a runner cannot correct a previous miss by touching the base the last time by.

In that case:

1. Abel on 1B. Baker lines to right-center. Abel rounds (touches) 2B and F9 makes the catch. Abel misses 2B on the return but makes it back to 1B as F9's throw gets away. Abel tags 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B on the return to 1B.

No last time by. Out.

Correct. Since all bases must be touched in order, to safely return to 1B without jeopardy of being out on appeal, he must actually touch 2B, then 1B. Now, at this point, he is free to advance without compromise.

2. Same play but Abel misses 2B as he rounds it. On the return he touches 2B. The throw gets away. Abel touches 1B and runs to 2B.

Abel is standing on 2B when the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by.

It's a missed base. Abel is out on appeal.

After the throw gets away (still in LBT) and Abel has returned to 1B, does he have to run to 2B, correct whatever miss he made the first or second time by, then return to 1B, and then, if he has time, run to 2B again?

Or, once he touches 1B, is it impossible for him to correct his error?

Here is where it CAN get dicey. By rule, the runner can be called out. However, you are now going to get the argument that Abel realized he missed 2B and was returning to touch it and then returned to 1B to retouch. This can be a valid point and is where that "judgment" thing comes into effect on the umpire's behalf. That's why we get the big bucks!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
"Abel deadheads across the infield and"

That is where the gross miss comes in. Greymule mentioned that. A gross miss cannot be corrected by last time by.

Thanks,
Roger

Roger, that's my point. Just what is a "gross miss"? Is it defined as a foot, yard, three yards, etc.?

[Roger Greene]

Judgment, Mike, judgment.

Much like the judgment of inteference or obstruction on a muffed batted ball. There we use the "step and a reach" rule of thumb. Greymule metioned the "body length" rule of thumb above.

Other clinicans use the "I know it when I see it" line. Obviously if the runner is cutting across the corner to shorten his distance that IS a gross miss. If the runner steps over the base, that is usually judged to NOT be a gross miss, therefore it may be corrected by last time by.

It's not rocket science, just common sense and judgment.

Roger Greene

[greymule]

Then if Abel misses 2B on his return to tag up at 1B, at what point is his miss of 2B uncorrectable? Obviously, if he missed 2B on the return, ran halfway back to 1B, and then turned around to run and touch 2B (correcting his miss), then returned to 1B before the ball got there, we would consider him as having corrected his miss.

Is it that once he has touched 1B on the return, he has irrevocably cemented his mistake at 2B?

I'm having a hard time with the logic here. Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, gets halfway to 3B, and, seeing the throw to 3B, retreats to 2B. While Abel is standing on 2B, the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by. I judge that Abel retreated to 2B not to correct his miss, but solely because he could see that he was going to be out at 3B. I therefore call him out for missing 2B.



[Edited by greymule on Dec 24th, 2004 at 11:49 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Then if Abel misses 2B on his return to tag up at 1B, at what point is his miss of 2B uncorrectable? Obviously, if he missed 2B on the return, ran halfway back to 1B, and then turned around to run and touch 2B (correcting his miss), then returned to 1B before the ball got there, we would consider him as having corrected his miss.

Is it that once he has touched 1B on the return, he has irrevocably cemented his mistake at 2B?

I'm having a hard time with the logic here.

Well, stop changing the play, or at least put a runner in for Abel. He's gotta be one tired SOB by now.

Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, gets halfway to 3B, and, seeing the throw to 3B, retreats to 2B. While Abel is standing on 2B, the defense tags him and appeals that he missed 2B the first time by. I judge that Abel retreated to 2B not to correct his miss, but solely because he could see that he was going to be out at 3B. I therefore call him out for missing 2B.

I believe you are really overthinking this one. In the play above the player is returning to a base in route to nowhere. The only way you get this runner out is if there is a live ball appeal at 2B prior to Abel returning.

[mcrowder]

Forget the gross miss. The only true question is on the close miss.

In Grey's situation 1, I have an out.

In Grey's situation 2, I have safe. Why? Because when a runner rounds a base and misses it, her only way to correct the error is to go back and touch it. In this sitch, when she misses 2nd and immediately returns to 2nd and then 1st, she has in essence done just that. If you do not agree, then do you also call her out if she rounds 2nd and misses it, recognizes her miss, stops, and returns directly to 2nd, ending the play standing there on 2nd?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Forget the gross miss. The only true question is on the close miss.

In Grey's situation 1, I have an out.

In Grey's situation 2, I have safe. Why? Because when a runner rounds a base and misses it, her only way to correct the error is to go back and touch it. In this sitch, when she misses 2nd and immediately returns to 2nd and then 1st, she has in essence done just that. If you do not agree, then do you also call her out if she rounds 2nd and misses it, recognizes her miss, stops, and returns directly to 2nd, ending the play standing there on 2nd?

Obviously not and, IMO, ludicrous to suggest so. Two different scenarios, actions and rulings.

[greymule]

In situation 2, I can't see any call but safe. Even if ASA does not recognize "last time by," the runner touched 2B when returning to 1B. Why she returned—whether she was even aware that she missed 2B the first time around—should not matter.

I still find it hard to believe that there's no "last time by" ASA. Is there a relevant case play?

In any case, though I've always thought of situation 1 as "safe" because of last time by, I can see the reasoning for an out and will in fact call it if it happens. Number 2 seems quite different, since the touch follows the miss.

[Edited by greymule on Dec 29th, 2004 at 07:59 AM]