Crow hop is never called!

[bkbjones]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
bkbjones: "In other words, men's fastpitch"

No, the crowhop is still illegal in men's FP.

I downloaded IP training video clips from the NFHS web site; one of which uses a male coach to demonstrate the crow hop. Now this is a major league crow hop!

He takes a big step back with his stride foot; shift his weight back and lifts the pivot foot off the plate. He then drives forward with his stride foot and lands the pivot foot at least 3' in front of the plate. Then his hands part and he goes into his pitching motion. I think there is even a Leap after that as his pivot foot again leaves the ground before going into the drag. His delivery is well past the 8' circle.

IMO, a crow hop is the replanting of the pivot foot closer to home before the pitching motion starts. (This is what ASA and NFHS tells it's umpires to look for in their POE's on IP's.) Those that keep finding something devious in the action of the pivot foot at the end of the drag are wrong IMO. If the pivot foot does dig into the ground at the end of the drag and helps the pitcher achieve the final push and to close her hips, then that is simply part of a good pitching motion.

WMB

And that is why, right up there where the original quote is, there is a big wink. That comment about men's fastpitch was not meant to be taken seriously.

[Steve M]

Speaking of men's ball, one of the organizations I work has an international men's league, and anything goes there as far as pitching goes. They've got some Canadians, some from New Zealand, I've seen them from Australia, and there are even some Americans. Their thought being you throw your best underhand pitch, any way you want. If I hit it, great for me. If you throw it past me, great for you. Some use a hop, just about all leap, and all lift the pivot foot off the rubber on their rocker step. And these guys have some great games. I was leary about joining this group, as I typically call the illegal pitch, but now I look forward to their weekends.

[nubie]

Sorry ump, but Cat was most definately ILLEGAL and as to Fernandez doing the commentary, who better to point out an illegal pitch, crow-hop/leap,than a pitcher? Come on now!! Cat Osterhopper is her nickname now, how embarassing! Umps, have the guts to call all illegal pitches!! You'll be helpinh the player as well as the sport of softball! PERIOD! Thanks!

Originally posted by bkbjones

One of my good friends, who is also a good young umpire, uses the "We see with our eyes. Parents/fans see with their hearts." No, he doesn't see with closed ones.

I would hope that you are using your time watching ESPN or whoever else to become a student of the game. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of umpiring "stuff" on there (unless they do something bad, then we see it...).

I'm not certain, but I would bet Lisa Fernandez has never attended an umpiring clinic. Depending upon Lisa to make an IP call would be similar to letting Tim McCarver umpire the World Series. Don't depend on what you hear from folks on TV.

If you have questions about what does and doesn't constitute an IP, ask your local UIC. That is what your UIC is for.

And you can bet dollars to donuts that if Cat was illegal, they would have been calling it.

[Dakota]

Welcome to the board, but your post is certainly living up to your moniker.

Ex-players are generally among the worst in rules understanding and interpretation.

And, you know Cat is illegal how? Were you present in the rules clinics for umpires given by NCAA? Were you present when clarifications or other instructions were given to UICs or NCAA tournament umpires?

Games are called in real time, not with still photography or slow motion video.

There is no question that Cat's feet become airborne at times, and that sometimes she replants. The question is, is this illegal according to the NCAA? (Not according to a static reading of the book, but according to the book as interpreted by the NCAA clinicians, UICs, etc.)

BTW, you "nickname" for Cat demonstrates your bias. How is the weather in California?

[clodder]

For a good discussion of the rules on this topic,

http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page3.html

[bkbjones]

Nicely put, Tom. I had thought of something else that wasn't NEARLY as nice.

There was quite a discussion of this whole thing with some of the folks involved in the WCWS over the past 2-3 years. I'm not a name dropper and I'm certainly not going to speak for them. However, I would encourage Nubie (and others) to pick the brains of some of these umpires.

For what it's worth, you can learn A LOT sitting around "out back" talking about plays, calls, etc. with other umpires, especially respected veterans who work at higher levels.

The game you improve may be your own!

Originally posted by Dakota
Welcome to the board, but your post is certainly living up to your moniker.

Ex-players are generally among the worst in rules understanding and interpretation.

And, you know Cat is illegal how? Were you present in the rules clinics for umpires given by NCAA? Were you present when clarifications or other instructions were given to UICs or NCAA tournament umpires?

Games are called in real time, not with still photography or slow motion video.

There is no question that Cat's feet become airborne at times, and that sometimes she replants. The question is, is this illegal according to the NCAA? (Not according to a static reading of the book, but according to the book as interpreted by the NCAA clinicians, UICs, etc.)

BTW, you "nickname" for Cat demonstrates your bias. How is the weather in California?

[nubie]

I may be a newbee compared to you, of that you are correct, but with names like Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell, don't you think you guys should once & for all put a stop to the hop(leap) & call it???

Originally posted by bkbjones
Nicely put, Tom. I had thought of something else that wasn't NEARLY as nice.

There was quite a discussion of this whole thing with some of the folks involved in the WCWS over the past 2-3 years. I'm not a name dropper and I'm certainly not going to speak for them. However, I would encourage Nubie (and others) to pick the brains of some of these umpires.

For what it's worth, you can learn A LOT sitting around "out back" talking about plays, calls, etc. with other umpires, especially respected veterans who work at higher levels.

The game you improve may be your own!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Apparently, you are too interested in your opinion to stop and read what has been posted.

Umpires call what they are told to call, not take it upon themselves on what to call on any given day.

It is not unusual as certain tournaments to be told to only call the terribly obvious violations, or not call it at all. In others, depending on the host's wishes, the umpire may be asked to make sure they call every little thing.

I believe it was noted earlier that the NCAA wants the BU to concentrate on the runners as their priority. What does that tell you?

Besides, I wouldn't doubt if the leap was dropped from the book in the next year or so. The men have already done away with it and the women seem to want the same.

[nubie]

Apparently, YOU aren't listening & following the RULES... I can & do read do you read the rule book? As you freely admit, Leaping/hopping are still, at this time, against the rules & until the powers that be make it legal, blue, you should call it & bring a little credability back to the game of softball, that's all I'm saying! Why does it seem we're picking & choosing the rules we're going to follow & not following the rules as they presently stand? Girlie ball!?Untilyou step up to the plate & call the infractions of hopping & leaping, the Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell jokes will continue! What a joke!

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Apparently, you are too interested in your opinion to stop and read what has been posted.

Umpires call what they are told to call, not take it upon themselves on what to call on any given day.

It is not unusual as certain tournaments to be told to only call the terribly obvious violations, or not call it at all. In others, depending on the host's wishes, the umpire may be asked to make sure they call every little thing.

I believe it was noted earlier that the NCAA wants the BU to concentrate on the runners as their priority. What does that tell you?

Besides, I wouldn't doubt if the leap was dropped from the book in the next year or so. The men have already done away with it and the women seem to want the same.

[jstark23]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nubie
[B]Apparently, YOU aren't listening & following the RULES... I can & do read do you read the rule book? As you freely admit, Leaping/hopping are still, at this time, against the rules & until the powers that be make it legal, blue, you should call it & bring a little credability back to the game of softball, that's all I'm saying! Why does it seem we're picking & choosing the rules we're going to follow & not following the rules as they presently stand? Girlie ball!?Untilyou step up to the plate & call the infractions of hopping & leaping, the Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell jokes will continue! What a joke!



Have you ever worked a game? That seems to be a question that has gotten lost in here. If you have then please, pretty please with sugar on top tell me where I can see you work, because obviously you are better than Davis, Edds, Bark, and any number of people that have worked NCAA regional, super regional and College World Series'. I have seen those umpires work and the three that I have mentioned are probably the 3 best I have ever seen, and obviously you are head and shoulders better than them.
I am sure that every member of the ASA National UIC staff have you on speed dial and they specifically request you to be on there staff for every National that they UIC. I know that Jeff Hansen has sent you countless invitations to work Regionals and WCWS's and you have probably just been to busy to accept any of them.

[nubie]

But sir, you all continue to refuse to answer the question; Like all the politician's do, ask a question or try to turn your shortcomings around on others. Simply stated, since crowhopping/leaping at present is illegal, why blue, do you refuse to call it, picking & choosing from tournament to tournament which rules will actually be called? Girley ball is what everyone calls it & frankly, it's embarrassing & degrading to the game of softball. Therefore, names like Hopperman & hopperwell will continue until you all have the guts to call a game by all the rules until such time that the rules are actually changed. Thank you & this isn't about me & what I want, it's about the game of softball!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jstark23
[B]

Originally posted by nubie
Apparently, YOU aren't listening & following the RULES... I can & do read do you read the rule book? As you freely admit, Leaping/hopping are still, at this time, against the rules & until the powers that be make it legal, blue, you should call it & bring a little credability back to the game of softball, that's all I'm saying! Why does it seem we're picking & choosing the rules we're going to follow & not following the rules as they presently stand? Girlie ball!?Untilyou step up to the plate & call the infractions of hopping & leaping, the Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell jokes will continue! What a joke!



Have you ever worked a game? That seems to be a question that has gotten lost in here. If you have then please, pretty please with sugar on top tell me where I can see you work, because obviously you are better than Davis, Edds, Bark, and any number of people that have worked NCAA regional, super regional and College World Series'. I have seen those umpires work and the three that I have mentioned are probably the 3 best I have ever seen, and obviously you are head and shoulders better than them.
I am sure that every member of the ASA National UIC staff have you on speed dial and they specifically request you to be on there staff for every National that they UIC. I know that Jeff Hansen has sent you countless invitations to work Regionals and WCWS's and you have probably just been to busy to accept any of them.

[jstark23]

and sir my point is lost on you, you spout the hyperbole of calling everything in the rule book, so therefore I issue a challenge to you. I happen to live in Austin, fly in I'll pick you up at the airport and you can stay at my house, I will break out the bar b que pit and we'll break out the finest brown bottles available... then the next day we'll go over to McCombs and I will set it up with Connie Clark, and you and I will work a live intrasquad, and then tell me from field level definatively that Osterrman hops... now remember that it will be live with no cameras focused on the feet, no frame by frame replays then come back here and say that YES, CAT OSTERRMAN DEFINATELY HOPS, LEAPS, DOESN'T BRING HER HANDS TOGETHER FOR 1 SECOND, OR ANY OTHER INFRACTION THAT YOU CAN FIND. You can email me with your flight reservations through the site

[IRISHMAFIA]

Nubie can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?

Nubie can you feel me?
Can I help to cheer you.

Ooo, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie...


Like it or not, you asked a question and received many answers for which you did not care as they did not fit your tenet.

Did you notice the overwhelming consensus? Did you notice that we even attempted to explain to you why certain things did not happen that you believe should have? Did you notice the more you continued to argue and accuse us of lacking integrity, the patience started wearing thin?

Great, you opened and read the rule book. Big deal, we all do that and probably much more than you. We also scour the case books, attend clinics, schools and seminars and I'm not just talking about those conducted by the local association.

Many of us have friends who are the same people you are degrading through your posts. We have worked slews of tournaments, local, regional, national and some international (World Cup). We know what goes on behind the scenes. Are some rules overlooked? No, but they are prioritized and in the upper levels of softball, the IP is not a high priority.

BTW, please understand that as an umpire, we are simply slaves to the game. It is not OUR game, nor are we responsible for it's integrity. The proprietors of the game and it's condition are those for whom we perform our duties. Since we are not paying them to play the game for us to officiate, but they a paying us to officiate the game they play, I would think that makes it THEIR game.

I'm sure everyone who has responded hopes you will advance in the umpiring ranks and work you way up the ladder. That's something that is borne in this community of ours.

I am probably one of the most anal people in the world when it comes to rules. Don't believe me, ask the people on this board. I am also aware of how to umpire at all levels. There is no doubt that you learn the rules and mechanics. However, you also need to listen to those who have been there, those who can get you there, and those who are there. It can only help your umpiring career.

Good luck,

[nubie]

IMafia, Yes, I can see you, hear you, loud & clear & smell you, & it smells like a rat! I thank you for what was a semblance of an answer, well sort of! I get now what you guys do! You are told by whomever is running the tournament which rules you are to call for that tournament, so that their team of choice wins, huh? Is that how it works? Sometimes you call leaving the base early, or interferance or blocking the base, other times you don't? OH! Thanks for the clarification!

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Nubie can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?

Nubie can you feel me?
Can I help to cheer you.

Ooo, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie...


Like it or not, you asked a question and received many answers for which you did not care as they did not fit your tenet.

Did you notice the overwhelming consensus? Did you notice that we even attempted to explain to you why certain things did not happen that you believe should have? Did you notice the more you continued to argue and accuse us of lacking integrity, the patience started wearing thin?

Great, you opened and read the rule book. Big deal, we all do that and probably much more than you. We also scour the case books, attend clinics, schools and seminars and I'm not just talking about those conducted by the local association.

Many of us have friends who are the same people you are degrading through your posts. We have worked slews of tournaments, local, regional, national and some international (World Cup). We know what goes on behind the scenes. Are some rules overlooked? No, but they are prioritized and in the upper levels of softball, the IP is not a high priority.

BTW, please understand that as an umpire, we are simply slaves to the game. It is not OUR game, nor are we responsible for it's integrity. The proprietors of the game and it's condition are those for whom we perform our duties. Since we are not paying them to play the game for us to officiate, but they a paying us to officiate the game they play, I would think that makes it THEIR game.

I'm sure everyone who has responded hopes you will advance in the umpiring ranks and work you way up the ladder. That's something that is borne in this community of ours.

I am probably one of the most anal people in the world when it comes to rules. Don't believe me, ask the people on this board. I am also aware of how to umpire at all levels. There is no doubt that you learn the rules and mechanics. However, you also need to listen to those who have been there, those who can get you there, and those who are there. It can only help your umpiring career.

Good luck,

[SRW]